Williams f7r in 172 ph2 ?????

[This_Is_Rich]

Just interested as in to wether anyone no's if the Williams engine will fit in 172 ph2 as I really like the way the Williams delivers the power just interested too see if it's possible? Lol so any info would be good lol cheers guys

 

[Struggler]

yes it will fit, straight in, on the same mounts (upper gearbox might need moding)

wiring may be interesting though!!

a few people have put the F7 engines in mk2s

 

[This_Is_Rich]

That's good news cheers and thought it looked pretty much same mount and yh think wiring shouldn't be to bad my boss is a bit of a whizz so I'll let him have ago with the wiring lol do you have any links to any people on here that have done it? Thanks again

 

[edde]

Its never as far as I know been done people prefere to use the f4R instead as its more powerful and newer into Mk2 and Mk1's.

Its going to be an easieer fit though than a f4r

I looked at this or a 1.8 as a transplant as its cheaper than a 172

 

[lemonnobby]

no they havent as the engine is old and f4r is better

 

[Fred@BTM]

waits for 9lives..................

 

[This_Is_Rich]

Yh Ino the engine is older but I just love the way the f7 puts the power down it's right the way through the revs and not at the top as with the Vvt setup on f4r's

Does the f7 tune well

Why 9 lives? Lol

 

[Jaff.]

i preffer the F7 to the F4 tbh. not had much to do with an F4 mind but my opinion is still the same

you can get the F7 to the same as the F4 with some cams and a remap easily. go high compression like the F4's are anyway and you can get 190-200 out of it

 

[edde]

you can get the F7 to the same as the F4 with some cams and a remap easily. go high compression like the F4's are anyway and you can get 190-200 out of it

But if its hp your afer go f4R with cams and remap and its more powerful than the f7

 

[edde]

Does the f7 tune well

Why 9 lives? Lol

It can be tunned but if its hp your after drop a 1.8 VAG etc in and tune that be cheaper.

9 Lives is a Williams fan won't want to see the engine in the wrong car. (I agree in many ways)

 

[Jaff.]

But if its hp your afer go f4R with cams and remap and its more powerful than the f7

bang for buck yeah, but from what ive seen and what i know, the F7 only requires some high comp pistons to be equal on bhp with a F4 i dare say the F7 may produce more torque lower down then too but i cant be 100% on that.

if you were going full out on either engine youd see the same gains imo

 

[Tutuur]

Don't Know exactly how they both react to tuning but i do know my willy has put down 140 ponies atw's with 200k on it.
(sebring silencer and j&r panel filter)
I've read alót topics where 1*2 don't even make that power....

 

[Jonny1*2]

waits for 9lives..................

lol. where is he? not seen him around in ages.

 

[This_Is_Rich]

Ino that the f4 Is more powerful but as iv said the drivability of the f7 engine IMO is so much better and I'm not after hp

But thanks for all the comments and iv heard some1 else on bout the 1.8 vag but I couldn't put german in French wouldn't feel right if I'm honest lol plus the engines weight a fookin tun

 

[Jonny1*2]

out of curiosity, what's the power delivery like compared?

 

[jacko_172]

Just interested as in to wether anyone no's if the Williams engine will fit in 172 ph2 as I really like the way the Williams delivers the power just interested too see if it's possible? Lol so any info would be good lol cheers guys

The F7R engine is used in Renault Clio Williams, Megane Coupe and Renault Sport Spider. The engine was created because displacement limit for FIA World Rally Championship Group A was 2000 cc and more power could be extracted from F7P (1764cc) engine with more capacity.

Differences between F7P (1.8L 16V) and F7R include increased capacity to 1998 cc, bigger valves, more aggressive cam profile, different crank, larger piston bore (82.7mm compared to F7P of 82.0mm), longer stroke (93.0mm compared to 83.50mm) different exhaust manifold, oil cooler, etc. All this results in more low-down torque and more power. Also F7R is coupled to uprated gearbox (JC5) instead of JB3(1.8 16V). Highly tuned F7R engine was used in Renault's rally car Clio Williams Maxi with power output ranging from 250 to 275 bhp (205 kW). This version was coupled with Sadev 6-speed manual or 7-speed Hewland sequential gearbox (stock Williams 5-speed manual). Later evolutions of rally engine had destroked crankshaft with 90mm stroke and 84mm bore diameter to keep the 1998cc capacity.

Engine was also used in BTCC Williams Renault Laguna. Engine was heavily modified by Sodemo and produced up to 320hp (Naturally aspirated).

[edit] Specifications

ENGINE
Induction capacity: 1998 cc
Bore x stroke 82.7 x 93 mm
Cylinders: 4
Valves: 16
Injection: multipoint fuel injected
Compression ratio: 9.8:1
Maximum power: 108 kW ISO 150 bhp (110 kW) DIN (Megane at 6000 rpm, Williams at 6100 rpm)
Maximum torque Williams F7R: 175 Nm ISO 17.5 mkg DIN (at 4500 rpm)
Maximum torque Megane F7R: 185 Nm ISO 18.2 mkg DIN (at 4500 rpm)
Redline: Williams 6500 rpm, Megane 6800 rpm


[edit] Modifications

Popular modifications for this engine:

- Wilder Camshafts
- Flowed head
- Forged pistons; often changing the compression ratio to 12:1(for NA applications) or 8:1(for turbo engines, some machine off material rather than buy new pistons to reduce compression ratio); and forged conrods
- Individual Throttle Bodies (iTB) conversion (reliable 210bhp+ and up to around 270 bhp (200 kW) in race versions)
- Turbo conversion (reliable 210bhp+ and up to 500bhp+ in some applications)
Many people choose turbo conversion over NA power, as power gains are cheaper, but ultimately this leads to a more unreliable engine, with head gaskets failing being the biggest problem!

Other modifications related to the engine include uprated exhaust manifold, modified intake manifold, stiffer engine mounts, uprated gearbox and limited slip differential (LSD), scuttle or foglight intake.

 

[daveski]

I've had a F7R and 2 F4Rs and prefer the F4s, love the way they take off with the VVT

 

[Feirny]

lol. where is he? not seen him around in ages.

He's bought a Trophy :quiet:

 

[_Tom]

Ive owned both. I prefer the f7r's power delivery tbh.

 

[This_Is_Rich]

out of curiosity, what's the power delivery like compared?

My personal opinion is the f7 feels more torque throughout the hole rev range and just picks up quicker
Whereas f4 dosnt don't get me wrong f4 is quick and more powerful but it's not all about down and out power especially on the roads where I live no long straight roads

Thanks Jako for the info mate

 

[Russ_16v]

I agree, the F7R does give a more smooth power deivery, and isd a great engine, but the mk1 is a lighter car, and different gearbox too, id personally keep with the F4R with some headwork and cams - Scricks work well low/mid range. Oh, for reference when i fitted itb's to my F4R, power was great low down - did remind me how my willy engine pulled

 

[Chip-mk1]

F7R doesnt really make more torque than the F4R does at the bottom end, it just feels like it does cause its in a slightly later car and cause it doesnt have the same top end pull.
Its not that the F4R is bad on bottom end power, its just that cause its so good at the top it makes it feel that way relatively.

Biggest issue you'll have on a phase 2 is the fact you'll get the dashboard lighting up if you fit a williams engine.

You can still use the 172 gearbox, I have one on my williams engine, so the gearbox mounts wont be an issue.

 

[Jaff.]

F7R doesnt really make more torque than the F4R does at the bottom end, it just feels like it does cause its in a slightly later car and cause it doesnt have the same top end pull.
Its not that the F4R is bad on bottom end power, its just that cause its so good at the top it makes it feel that way relatively.

Biggest issue you'll have on a phase 2 is the fact you'll get the dashboard lighting up if you fit a williams engine.

You can still use the 172 gearbox, I have one on my williams engine, so the gearbox mounts wont be an issue.

if there you mean a lighter car, then the megane is a heavier car than even the mk2 clios and it still pulls well. had a little drag onto the motorway with my mates 172 before and we were level pegging untill about 50-60mph, then he started to pull away. so its not entirely the fact that the F7 in in a lighter car.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Yes I meant lighter car, in the context of the clio williams.

Megane F7R is around a second slower to 60 than a clio 172 IIRC, so must have been something wrong with your mates 172 I would guess, or he cant drive, lol

Dont get me wrong, im not anti F7R, in fact I really like them, we have 3 clios currently including one with an F4R and one with an F7R, im just being totally objective.

 

[Jaff.]

Yes I meant lighter car, in the context of the clio williams.

Megane F7R is slower to 60 than a clio 172, so must have been something wrong with your mates car I would guess.

Dont get me wrong, im not anti F7R, in fact I really like them, we have 3 clios currently including one with an F4R and one with an F7R, im just being totally objective.

im also trying to be objective but again, ive not had much experience with many F4's

what im trying to get at is, i dont see much diffrence in either engine when it comes to potential. i preffer the F7 for much the same reasons as the OP but i have nothign against an F4 its just a more highly strung engine then the F7 to begin with

dont think there was anything wrong with his car, could have been his driving of course as it was very late at night but as far as i and bilieve he is concerned it was a fair test. he was just happyu he started pulling away at 50+ lol

 

[Chip-mk1]

Williams lump has get decent double valve springs as standard, and is easier to convert to solid lifters, so as a starting point for tuning its got some distinct advantages over the F4R, only significant disadvantage that springs to mind really is the lack of variable cam timing, but that doesnt effect peak power, just means you lose a little midrange for the same cam profile on both engines.

I think if I was starting from scratch now with my mk1 and was stupid enough to want a renault engine and box again, I'd go for the F4R on balance, if only because its easier to find a good one for sensible money, so I cant really see much logic in the hassle of converting a ph2 to be an F7R given the amount of hassle involved just to end up with an engine thats likely to be high miles etc and obviously the cost too.

 

[Jaff.]

Williams lump has get decent double valve springs as standard, and is easier to convert to solid lifters, so as a starting point for tuning its got some distinct advantages over the F4R, only significant disadvantage that springs to mind really is the lack of variable cam timing, but that doesnt effect peak power, just means you lose a little midrange for the same cam profile on both engines.

I think if I was starting from scratch now with my mk1 and was stupid enough to want a renault engine and box again, I'd go for the F4R on balance, if only because its easier to find a good one for sensible money, so I cant really see much logic in the hassle of converting a ph2 to be an F7R given the amount of hassle involved just to end up with an engine thats likely to be high miles etc and obviously the cost too.

of course, sensible head for a clio that has the F4 in it already it makes life easier to go for one with higher power stock and something that fits relativley straight in.

but what im saying is, if you were going all out on an engine (im talking cams, bodies, pistons etc.) id say your no better off with the F4. id even go as far as saying the F7 might be the better option anyway providing you can fit it into a clio with relative ease

but again, this could all be down to personal opinion i.e i think the F7 drives better, others think the F4 does. its then 6 of one and half a dozen of the other

 

[RTSportdTi]

Megane F7R is around a second slower to 60 than a clio 172 IIRC, so must have been something wrong with your mates 172 I would guess, or he cant drive, lol

HEY! lol

the way i remeber it Jaff, we pulled off a roundabout I was behind you, then a few seconds later, I was infront of you... lol :rasp:.. Hence F4 > F7

 

[Chip-mk1]

of course, sensible head for a clio that has the F4 in it already it makes life easier to go for one with higher power stock and something that fits relativley straight in.

but what im saying is, if you were going all out on an engine (im talking cams, bodies, pistons etc.) id say your no better off with the F4. id even go as far as saying the F7 might be the better option anyway providing you can fit it into a clio with relative ease

but again, this could all be down to personal opinion i.e i think the F7 drives better, others think the F4 does. its then 6 of one and half a dozen of the other

If you are building a big spec motor, either will be an acceptable starting point, so just go with the one already in the car seems the logical option.

 

[Jaff.]

HEY! lol

the way i remeber it Jaff, we pulled off a roundabout I was behind you, then a few seconds later, I was infront of you... lol :rasp:.. Hence F4 > F7

lol you didnt gain or pass me untillw e hit about 50 anyway, and i was driving the shed with my rebuilt engine in it whihc i was taking it easy with

which reminds me... that shed was completley bare... so that could count for the weight diffrence...

 

[Chip-mk1]

Lol @ how when you first posted appaerently you and your mate were in agreement there is nothing in it to 60 (despite renault stating categorically the opposite) and now your mate doesnt agree at all.

 

[Jaff.]

never said he was in agreement he was very tired and wanted to get home

its what happened tho, but thinking back on it like i said the car i was driving was completley bare so that might have had something to do with the result

 

[Dan519]

I almost put my spider F7R into a mk2. Seemed a bit of a pointless exercise though, F7's aren't really relevent to the business anymore so I couldn't justify not having an F4R

 

[Jaff.]

I almost put my spider F7R into a mk2. Seemed a bit of a pointless exercise though, F7's aren't really relevent to the business anymore so I couldn't justify not having an F4R

thats also true. not much out there for the F7 now the F4 is renaults sport engine

 

[Dan519]

thats also true. not much out there for the F7 now the F4 is renaults sport engine

want to buy some throttle bodies?

 

[Jaff.]

want to buy some throttle bodies?

lol if i wasnt turbocharging mine then id probably go for it tbh, your about a year too late

 

[RTSportdTi]

Lol @ how when you first posted appaerently you and your mate were in agreement there is nothing in it to 60 (despite renault stating categorically the opposite) and now your mate doesnt agree at all.

TBF, I was surprised at how 'equal' they were, for a 150bhp (book figures obviously) it took a bit more effort to pass than I thought it would have.

 

[Chip-mk1]

TBF, I was surprised at how 'equal' they were, for a 150bhp (book figures obviously) it took a bit more effort to pass than I thought it would have.

Torque for most of the rev range is pretty similar, its quiet a narrow bit of the rev range that the F4R really has an advantage for.