182cup & 172 racecar
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Yay or Nay...Camber bolts
- Thread starter callum_bell
- Start date
- Status
WRX
I'm making myself sound silly? I use them to increase my speed, on track in a legal environment.
Go and ask your girlfriend's family what they think about it. Your car isn't fast enough for the road?
Ask my girlfriend? What makes you think i have one?
Why do people always think you have to speed to have fun? I drag race and I do track days occasionally I have fun on national speed limit roads which are twisty and demanding. So yes I can corner faster but I can also corner with more feel of the car as its setup to my preference. Do you think I am some sort of boy racer who knows f**k all about cars?
Why do people always think you have to speed to have fun? I drag race and I do track days occasionally I have fun on national speed limit roads which are twisty and demanding. So yes I can corner faster but I can also corner with more feel of the car as its setup to my preference. Do you think I am some sort of boy racer who knows f**k all about cars?
realnumber 1
ClioSport Club Member
This argument is as daft as the one about not needing uprated pads on the road because the standard are more than good enough for the road.... Never hurts to make it better imo.
So basically your a wizzard? Did you go to hogwarts and s**t? Did you need to adjust the camber on your broom stick for quidich?
Incredibly.
This is the Clio "Technical" forum, specifically an area for discussion of suspension. Your posts indicate that you lack an understanding of the finer details of suspension geometry and dynamics (perfectly reasonable), and also lack an appreciation for others discussing it in detail (not reasonable). Good alignment setup is important for road as well as track, and the stock Clio geometry can be improved and optimised for both these scenarios.
It is by no means perfect out of the box for either application, and your blind arguments aren't contributing to the knowledge base.
The thread is not about how people drive on the road, parents in law, beers, cloaks, etc. Sidetracking just shows inability to maintain mature discussion.
WRX
No it's a forum and the original post was asking for people's opinions on whether it was worth it. My opinion was based on 23 years of driving, both on road and track. I don't need to get technical to answer it and never assume that I have a lack of technical knowledge, just because I couldn't be bothered to quote figures to try and make myself look clever. I have studied the technical aspects of driving and car setup, quite comprehensively. The thread was created by somebody, asking if it was worth fitting camber bolts to a road car. My initial reply still stands in my opinion and nobody could alter that. If you feel that you really would benefit from it, so be it but I do not feel that I need to get that extra 1 mph on a public road. I have far more important things in my life, like a family that might unfortunately be on the same stretch of road as you one day. You never know what's around the corner. My argument is far from blind, it's crystal clear. You seem to believe that you feel the need to make a Clio faster for the road, I wholeheartedly disagree.
Dr HMS Derv Destroyer
ClioSport Club Member
MK1DTi/vivaro/corsa
Camber bolts for road use is just a waste of money, are you really going to be driving that much of a t**t to use them to their full advantage on the road? No thought not
Yes I run them for road use because of an unknown issue that is currently under investigation.
Yes I run them for road use because of an unknown issue that is currently under investigation.
realnumber 1
ClioSport Club Member
Flol, this place is full of people who add boost, ARB's, coilies, better brakes etc... Most never see a track, does that mean they all drive like t***s... No thought not
.
Dr HMS Derv Destroyer
ClioSport Club Member
MK1DTi/vivaro/corsa
Flol, this place is full of people who add boost, ARB's, coilies, better brakes etc... Most never see a track, does that mean they all drive like tw*ts... No thought not
Each to their own! It was in figure of speech.
182cup & 172 racecar
Flol, this place is full of people who add boost, ARB's, coilies, better brakes etc... Most never see a track, does that mean they all drive like tw*ts... No thought not
More likely yes.
Phase 2 172
Jeebus this has all escalated quite quickly
imprezaworks
ClioSport Club Member
Mk5 Golf GTI :)
I would argue yes. Just because you want the car to handle better doesnt mean your going to drive like a clown. Arguments against fitting them would be the same as why are you fitting coilovers, changing your exhaust, fitting better non oem tyres, changing the induction kit. All things making the car drive better/quicker (maybe). If your a dick before (not saying you are lol) fitting camber bolts will not make you less of one.
A shed
the way some threads go on this forum we should all leave all cars standard
WRX
There's a big difference between just doing it because you WANT to. I have no problem at all with that. It's your money, your car, your choice. If you want to put coilies on etc. etc. crack on. However there's people in here, saying that the way they commute, a Cliosport doesn't handle well enough. That just turns me into Hellboy lol. It's idiots like that, that think they're god's gift, that kill innocent people. I'm no saint and yes I put my foot down and have a play on the lanes by me but if I ever thought that I needed to improve the handling because it wasn't good enough for the road, I'd need a severe word with myself.
Did it ever occur to you that there may be places and times to drive on public roads that are void of traffic and people? Remote areas, mountain regions late at night, etc.
You're making some very short sighted assumptions and assuming they apply to everyone. I highly doubt anyone is driving fast on busy roads trying to "kill innocent people". This thread asked about improving the handling of the car. You're building straw men to try and support the ridiculous statement you made in your very first post.
As I answered in my original post, yes indeed the stock alignment can be improved (significantly) even for the street. If you bothered to read and understand my post you'd notice that the factory front camber (and caster) setup can be improved even for modest paced driving - compared to the rear which runs completely appropriate numbers.
Simply matching the front camber to rear would result in:
- a more predictable front/rear balance at the limit
- improved heat management on front tyres
- increase contact patch (and thus traction) during cornering
- generally improve tyre life in the scenarios most people use these cars in
An increase in caster (though a little more difficult to achieve) would further improve handling without sacrificing tyre life in straight-line applications.
You're making some very short sighted assumptions and assuming they apply to everyone. I highly doubt anyone is driving fast on busy roads trying to "kill innocent people". This thread asked about improving the handling of the car. You're building straw men to try and support the ridiculous statement you made in your very first post.
As I answered in my original post, yes indeed the stock alignment can be improved (significantly) even for the street. If you bothered to read and understand my post you'd notice that the factory front camber (and caster) setup can be improved even for modest paced driving - compared to the rear which runs completely appropriate numbers.
Simply matching the front camber to rear would result in:
- a more predictable front/rear balance at the limit
- improved heat management on front tyres
- increase contact patch (and thus traction) during cornering
- generally improve tyre life in the scenarios most people use these cars in
An increase in caster (though a little more difficult to achieve) would further improve handling without sacrificing tyre life in straight-line applications.
Can a mod not just lock this thread, Its just going to go round in circles.
my turn , the single easiest point to not udi is that if i took 10 cliosport members including yourself and got them to drive 3 cars all on the same tyres with 3 setups ON THE ROAD , over a given journey i would guess 9 if not 10 would not be able to tell which car had which setup.
subtle differences are difficult to tell on the road and so they should be , and your assumptions of matching front to rear camber to balance the car are made on what assumption ?
i would love it if to get a balanced geo setup all you had to do was match the settings front to rear , unfortunately your assumption is flawed , because that simply isn't true !!! and depends on a whole host of variables ....
get a decent trye temp gauge and check your temps after a spirited ROAD drive , the info it will give you will be diddly squat unless your setup is stupidly extreme ,and then it will only tell you something thats no doubt obvious to the eye ?
also increasing caster does not always make handling better , another assumption based on what ?
If something is bent fix it, having it adjustable just means if you do hit a pot hole etc its easier for it to get thrown out in future as its an extra thing that can move.
Personally for a road only car I am with Adam for leaving it standard as Im more interested in stability and tyre life than .5mph more apex speed personally, but each to their own I guess.
If you are driving hard enough on the road to notice the difference with a tiny bit more neg, then IMHO you should be doing trackdays instead.
No I think its you that is lacking the understand that what Adam is saying. Which isnt that it cant be made better, of course it can, but his point is that on the road you should be far enough from the limits of adhesion at all times in a standard camber 172 to really not feel the need to increase the negative camber.
Flol, this place is full of people who add boost, ARB's, coilies, better brakes etc... Most never see a track, does that mean they all drive like tw*ts... No thought not
No in most cases it just means that they are wasting their money just to try and build a car that sounds cool on the itnernet but never gets used in anger so is utterly pointless, lol.
Read the original post. He has installed Cup Suspension, ball joints, and Eibach springs. By your / Adam's logic, none of these items are appropriate for road use either, there is no reason you should be exceeding the capacity of stock versions of those items during sensible road driving. Chances are if you are making these handling upgrades, your car is seeing driving (location is irrelevant) that justifies proper alignment and suspension geometry as well. Does that make sense to you? Within the CONTEXT of his post (and the rest of his car setup), correcting camber is perfectly logical and reasonable.
1. I suggested the numbers should be closer to equal - no that it was the perfect setup. Basis? Perfectly even rear tyre wear on most hard-driven Clios I've seen, outside edges significantly worn on fronts. 0.3*F and 1.5*R is a huge bias - look at any well sorted performance car (road or track) with suspension systems front and rear that offer *similar* gain in negative camber over travel, and you'll see that the numbers rarely vary by 1.2*. This does NOT apply to cars with multilink/wishbones on only one end of the car, however this does not describe the Clio.
2. I already explained this, go through my first few posts. Caster increases negative camber dynamically relative to steering angle - it's a common solution (not perfect, but effective) to the poor camber curves of strut suspension. Compared to adding static negative camber, it has the benefit of not influencing straight line traction or tyre wear, and also the benefit of increasing positive camber on the inside wheel during cornering which should reduce its tendency to spin / unload. The only real "negatives" are increased centering tension (a benefit to most drivers) and possibility of tyre rub if you go as far as Chip did. Again - as I said, the stock caster numbers (<2* on the OP's Ph2 172) on the Clio are quite low for a strut frontend compared to better fast-road OR track setup.
The fact that the stock caster is so low on this particular model of Clio further exacerbates the issues of running such low front camber numbers. The caster situation should be corrected first in my opinion as it offers more benefit and less compromise, however it is a more difficult change to make.
You are claiming as assumption things that I have adequately explained and justified.
I dont think you need eibachs or anything else on a standard clio 172 to increase cornering grip for normal road use, but I do like the feel of a slightly firmer ride, so it depends on why they are being fitted.
Its perfectly possibly to drive at entirely inappropriate speeds already in a good condition 172, so personally its only on track that I feel to corner faster than a standard one can these days.
In the op's case I think fitting Eibach's is only going to prolong the life of his tyres on track and road rather than giving any noticeable differences to apex speeds etc so I agree with udi and don't see the problem with having £20 bolts (you have probably lost more in change down the sofa this year) fitted and optimising your alignment (something that's done anyway)
Some people don't care of finer details but I can see udi does and I certainly do. If something can be improved for nothing or very little outlay then why not. Some tinker with things...some don't.
c'est la vie
I like tinkering with things, but the problem is testing them afterwards on the road is far from ideal, so I prefer trackdays for that side of it. I just dont think roads are an appropriate place to develop the suspension setup of a 172 really, its already been done at the factory past the amount of grip its responsible to use on the road anyway really IMHO
Highly unlikely to be down to an extra 1 degree of camber, more likely you tracking wasnt set correctly or you had play in some steering component.
If you actually lean a tyre over 1mm on a mill and cut the tyre tread on a 195 wide tyre you wouldnt even lose 1mm. So anymore than that difference between inside and outside isnt down to camber alone, especially given the amount of give in the tyre to spread the load.
182cup & 172 racecar
This is me atm :quiet:
It as simple to me as why not its £20 and you'll have the geo done anyway and as said previously it evens up the very wishy washy setup they come with.
Same applies to engine maps which I'm sure you relate to more Chip. Cars at the end of the day are generic, why not SLIGHTLY improve what was sent out the factory as I'm sure your modified settings/map is closer to what the Renault engineers would have done given half a chance.
Same applies to engine maps which I'm sure you relate to more Chip. Cars at the end of the day are generic, why not SLIGHTLY improve what was sent out the factory as I'm sure your modified settings/map is closer to what the Renault engineers would have done given half a chance.
I was to Tony but why have a massive debate over a £20 part that will even the almost certainly misaligned suspension?!?!?
Its not just 20 quid, its 20 quid plus then having to pay to have your geo set, which he probably has already had done, and this time he wont just be paying for tracking it will be camber to, so potentially its more like 80 quid.
Dont get me wrong, it WILL be better after, I just doubt he will notice it is unless he drives like a tool on the road, and whats the point in spending 80 quid for something you dont even have any way of knowing is actually better?
Depends on the car too of course, like for example I'd sooner spend the money on most 172s on steering rack bushes instead.
Its possible to get carried away spending on these cars and if only using them on the road not really see a return for your "investment"
With regards to your map comment, the same applies really, I'd say for a road car just stick an RS Tuner on it and be happy with it, even though I know that personally I can always improve on that, I wouldnt recomend someone spending 300 quid on a custom map on a basic spec road car, yes it will be better but no it wont be worth it.
Dont get me wrong, it WILL be better after, I just doubt he will notice it is unless he drives like a tool on the road, and whats the point in spending 80 quid for something you dont even have any way of knowing is actually better?
Depends on the car too of course, like for example I'd sooner spend the money on most 172s on steering rack bushes instead.
Its possible to get carried away spending on these cars and if only using them on the road not really see a return for your "investment"
With regards to your map comment, the same applies really, I'd say for a road car just stick an RS Tuner on it and be happy with it, even though I know that personally I can always improve on that, I wouldnt recomend someone spending 300 quid on a custom map on a basic spec road car, yes it will be better but no it wont be worth it.
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Thread will probably get a lock soon anyway so get it said before it's too late
I have camber bolts but my car had like 0 camber for some reason, nothing was loose or with any play, I'd imagine something wrong has been fitted at some point maybe.
Shame, would be as interesting to hear your views in what you feel is worth doing the context of a road car as it is anyone elses.
182cup & 172 racecar
I have a picture in my mind of you , 'using your car vigorously'.lol.
If you want to use camber bolts, then fine. Not really needed, but you can make those finer adjustments if you so desire, for reasons mentioned in the 50,000 posts above.
They won't cost a fortune, so crack on.
I dont find the standard cars wear tyres unevenly in normal road driving.
And that 80 quid would pay for you to have your tracking done every 6 months for a year and a half, which given a few knocks and potholes here and there is probably a bet wat to spend it from an economical point of view than adding an extra adjustment to knock out and then only doing tracking once during the same period.So
So no I dont think there is an argument that its financially beneficial to tyre wear to fit camber bolts personally.
182cup & 172 racecar
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