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EPAS?



  172
Fairly sure I prefer the feel of HPAS, though I haven't driven the same car on same tyres/suspension/etc back to back.

EPAS makes the car more reliable (one less thing to go wrong), easier to work on, lighter & more powerful.


Wouldn't bother on a road car, but if it's a pure track/race car I'd consider it a no-brainer for the reliability & extra space alone.
 

Martin_172

ClioSport Club Member
I've got EPAS on my van, it doesn't feel as nice as the HPAS but the thing FLYS though the revs, I've never had a 172/182 that revs the way it does, and its a standard engine.

makes getting the engine out easier too which is handy if you enjoy that sort of thing lol
 

incy-spider

ClioSport Club Member
Just did mine, I feel like I’ll be forever adjusting the assistance knob!

Feels great though and it is also peace of mind as said.. also the added bonus of being able to actually get to my oil filter easily!!


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colesy

ClioSport Club Member
  172 182 197 E61 530D
Got EPAS on both of mine and as other people have said, it hasn’t got the feel of HPAS but the peace of mind and extra space in the engine bay makes up for it for me.
 

Yarp

ClioSport Club Member
  Clio 182, E46 M3
I’ve been meaning to do mine but haven’t been able to work out exactly what I need. Is there a guide and complete parts list anywhere?
 

R29TJR

ClioSport Club Member
  2005 RB 182 Cup
HPAS without doubt gives a better feel.

However I run EPAS on mine for the many reasons listed above. It still feel great to drive and I'm pleased I did it.
 

Beauvais Motorsport

ClioSport Club Member
The issue is the non sport electric column is designed specifically for cars with smaller tyres, less mechanical trail and self aligning torque. If you run sticky rubber and increased caster the torsion bar and assistance calibration cant cope and you'll have 'laggy' steering that needs to have the torsion bar twisted a lot (all the way sometimes) to even turn the wheels.
If running a roll centre correction kit, standard or less caster, 15's and even a higher rear (positive rake) then the system can cope fine due to much less MT and SAT. More inline with that of the non sport.
 
The issue is the non sport electric column is designed specifically for cars with smaller tyres, less mechanical trail and self aligning torque. If you run sticky rubber and increased caster the torsion bar and assistance calibration cant cope and you'll have 'laggy' steering that needs to have the torsion bar twisted a lot (all the way sometimes) to even turn the wheels.
If running a roll centre correction kit, standard or less caster, 15's and even a higher rear (positive rake) then the system can cope fine due to much less MT and SAT. More inline with that of the non sport.
Best answer. Thank you for that.
 

incy-spider

ClioSport Club Member
The issue is the non sport electric column is designed specifically for cars with smaller tyres, less mechanical trail and self aligning torque. If you run sticky rubber and increased caster the torsion bar and assistance calibration cant cope and you'll have 'laggy' steering that needs to have the torsion bar twisted a lot (all the way sometimes) to even turn the wheels.
If running a roll centre correction kit, standard or less caster, 15's and even a higher rear (positive rake) then the system can cope fine due to much less MT and SAT. More inline with that of the non sport.

I wonder if a Clio 3 197 column could be used in a 182.. obviously a lot different and bulky but could be interesting


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Beauvais Motorsport

ClioSport Club Member
I wonder if a Clio 3 197 column could be used in a 182.. obviously a lot different and bulky but could be interesting


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It has been done. I dont have any experience with the mk3s but its clearly much more capable, its mounting brackets compared to the mk2s are way more rigid.

 

Mr Underhill

ClioSport Club Member
I’m running EPAS on the track car in conjunction with A040/52 tyres, 15” Pro Race wheels, roll centre correction kit, -3.5 degrees of camber. Took a bit of adjustment to get the feel right, but I wouldn’t go back to HPAS for track. Other advantages, as pointed out above, is accessibility to the engine/gearbox/components.
 
  172
Where is this torsion bar?

Primary function of a column is to transmit torque from hand wheel to pinion. Makes sense & is common to have damping (typically with a rubber isolator) but makes no sense to nerf stiffness (which is what a torsion bar would do).

I have a looped HPAS rack (4x mounting points versus DCI's 2) attached to the subframe via bespoke brackets that raise the rack up in Z to reduce bumpsteer, bolted to a length-adjustable Scenic lower column, welded to a height-adjustable Clio DCI upper EPAS column, mounted directly to the cage. If you're telling me that I did all of that and didn't notice a big springy thing... well... :LOL:


Can't say I've had any issues with assistance dropping out or being delayed mid corner, but then as above that's influenced by a long list of things. What I have noticed is that assistance takes a good few seconds to ramp up or drop off after you turn the dial on an ebay kit. This is because the adjuster mimics the vehicle speed signal on a DCI, and the EPAS ECU will apply a low pass filter or plausibility check on that signal to stop the steering suddenly going light during instant-unrealistic-acceleration (e.g. wheel spin) or suddenly going heavy in the event of instant-unrealistic-deceleration (e.g. ABS braking or a signal failure).
 
Steering-torque-and-angle-p.jpg



Internals of a electric steering rack
 

incy-spider

ClioSport Club Member
View attachment 1564925


Internals of a electric steering rack

Anyone done surgery to it? Taken the torsion bar out and beefed it up?

I run a correction kit on mine, sticky tyres etc.. also a looped standard 182 rack.. feels pretty good, but can feel a sort of disconnected feeling if I’m throwing it hard into turns… it’s not that bad but different to the HPAS.

I am thinking about doing the pure motorsport castor strut top kit but but don’t want to make things harder on the EPAS if it possibly will, i actually thought it could help with more self centre characteristics that more castor gives.?


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  172
Ah I see, so you need to measure some displacement with a known torsional stiffness to calculate torque applied…

So if you beef up the torsion bar without changing the sensor then the torque sensor will under read and presumably give less assistance. Which presumably you can counter by winding the assistance back up.

Presumably more modern EPAS systems have a different sensor type, or just a more precise sensor that can detect small displacements and therefore work with a stiffer torsion bar.

Everyday is a school day etc.
 

Beauvais Motorsport

ClioSport Club Member
This is the mk2 column.

IMG_0038.JPG


IMG_0039.JPG


This is the hpas from the 182

IMG_1580.JPG



This is the total amount that can be twisted, although they are disconnected and would obviously take a lot more force to twist. Under parking situations and heavy load it can twist that much.

Also why you should never run a looped hpas rack. A dci rack or manual quick rack conversion are your best bet, but people do weld them together.




Anyone done surgery to it? Taken the torsion bar out and beefed it up?

I run a correction kit on mine, sticky tyres etc.. also a looped standard 182 rack.. feels pretty good, but can feel a sort of disconnected feeling if I’m throwing it hard into turns… it’s not that bad but different to the HPAS.

I am thinking about doing the pure motorsport castor strut top kit but but don’t want to make things harder on the EPAS if it possibly will, i actually thought it could help with more self centre characteristics that more castor gives.?


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You will 100% benefit from the alternatives above, that disconnect feeling is a lot down to the looped rack.

For the cost it would be better to fit a 197 or more modern powerful epas column.

Its a balance when adjusting caster, yes you will gain more self aligning torque (self centering) but mechanical trail also. The way you can offset this is by having the lower ball joint lower to the ground, with a rcck you are already lower and lowering even more could possibly do more harm to the roll centre and the scrub radius (more positive) unless you add more king pin inclination to balance that out. If you lowered the wishbone mounting points also then you could keep your original scrub radius.

Adjust one thing it changes another... Gives me a headache to say the least 😄
 

incy-spider

ClioSport Club Member
This is the mk2 column.

View attachment 1564931

View attachment 1564932

This is the hpas from the 182

View attachment 1564933


This is the total amount that can be twisted, although they are disconnected and would obviously take a lot more force to twist. Under parking situations and heavy load it can twist that much.

Also why you should never run a looped hpas rack. A dci rack or manual quick rack conversion are your best bet, but people do weld them together.

View attachment 1564934




You will 100% benefit from the alternatives above, that disconnect feeling is a lot down to the looped rack.

For the cost it would be better to fit a 197 or more modern powerful epas column.

Its a balance when adjusting caster, yes you will gain more self aligning torque (self centering) but mechanical trail also. The way you can offset this is by having the lower ball joint lower to the ground, with a rcck you are already lower and lowering even more could possibly do more harm to the roll centre and the scrub radius (more positive) unless you add more king pin inclination to balance that out. If you lowered the wishbone mounting points also then you could keep your original scrub radius.

Adjust one thing it changes another... Gives me a headache to say the least [emoji1]

That’s really interesting, so I could possibly improve the disconnected feeling by fitting a quick rack and pinion like this … http://www.pure-motorsport.co.uk/clio-2-rs-quick-rack-25-reduction.html

It’s a solid pinion


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Adey.

ClioSport Club Member
Is there no way to retro fit the epas from the Twingo RS133, being basically a clio underneath id of thought it would be a near direct fit. The rack itself is shorter/quicker than the non sport version also.
 

Beauvais Motorsport

ClioSport Club Member
Is there no way to retro fit the epas from the Twingo RS133, being basically a clio underneath id of thought it would be a near direct fit. The rack itself is shorter/quicker than the non sport version also.
Ive heard the racks fit but the columns are slightly different.

Its a balance when adjusting caster, yes you will gain more self aligning torque (self centering) but mechanical trail also. The way you can offset this is by having the lower ball joint lower to the ground, with a rcck you are already lower and lowering even more could possibly do more harm to the roll centre and the scrub radius (more positive) unless you add more king pin inclination to balance that out. If you lowered the wishbone mounting points also then you could keep your original scrub radius. Roll centre
Edited.
 
  182 trackcar, XC60t6
Fairly sure I prefer the feel of HPAS, though I haven't driven the same car on same tyres/suspension/etc back to back.

EPAS makes the car more reliable (one less thing to go wrong), easier to work on, lighter & more powerful.


Wouldn't bother on a road car, but if it's a pure track/race car I'd consider it a no-brainer for the reliability & extra space alone.
Or…..no PAS at all for a track only car. I haven’t missed mine and I binned it years ago.
 

incy-spider

ClioSport Club Member
is it not a handful when it gets out of shape? maybe I need my Weetabix but I think id struggle to catch it if it got out of shape without PAS

They may vary but the HPAS rack on mine looped is the worst thing in the world to drive.. soooo heavy and I do eat my weetabix.

I have the PMS short rack kit coming for mine so I’m going to make sure I don’t have any overly tight/seizing rose joints or something whilst I re build the rack! (Do have EPAS)


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incy-spider

ClioSport Club Member
Okay so some info.. converting a HPAS rack with the looped method is s**t. Mainly down to the pinion as talked about above, not many people even know it’s a two piece design which causes some horrible feeling steering.

also the right amount of fluid that is acceptable in the rack is an unknown, in my case when I pulled it apart yesterday had quite a lot still in there which could have caused a few stiff issues..

anyway now the best bit, I’ve converted to a short rack from pure 25% reduction, the steering now feels sharp and precise as it used too but… BUT!!!! now I have problems with my ESP because the the steering angle sensor is saying say 5 degrees and the actual amount the wheels turn is a lot more so then that messes with the YAW sensor!! 😔 for now I have disconnected the YAW sensor so I can use it without the ESP cutting in at 10mph when turning, but that obviously has left me with the SERV and ESP lights on which I’m hoping to sort by re flashing the ABS computer with non ESP software but don’t even know if it possible yet..

anyone have a work around?
 

Beauvais Motorsport

ClioSport Club Member
Yep exactly the same place, and even re zero’d the angle sensor. It’s down to the yaw at what the computer thinks is low steering input


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You may need renault clip software to reset it. Are you sure you didnt spin the wheel when the rack was out?
 

Martin_172

ClioSport Club Member
Okay so some info.. converting a HPAS rack with the looped method is s**t. Mainly down to the pinion as talked about above, not many people even know it’s a two piece design which causes some horrible feeling steering.

also the right amount of fluid that is acceptable in the rack is an unknown, in my case when I pulled it apart yesterday had quite a lot still in there which could have caused a few stiff issues..

anyway now the best bit, I’ve converted to a short rack from pure 25% reduction, the steering now feels sharp and precise as it used too but… BUT!!!! now I have problems with my ESP because the the steering angle sensor is saying say 5 degrees and the actual amount the wheels turn is a lot more so then that messes with the YAW sensor!! 😔 for now I have disconnected the YAW sensor so I can use it without the ESP cutting in at 10mph when turning, but that obviously has left me with the SERV and ESP lights on which I’m hoping to sort by re flashing the ABS computer with non ESP software but don’t even know if it possible yet..

anyone have a work around?
What happens if you clear the code, and then switch ESP off every time before you drive? im not clued up on the inner workings of the system.
 

incy-spider

ClioSport Club Member
What happens if you clear the code, and then switch ESP off every time before you drive? im not clued up on the inner workings of the system.

Even with the ESP turned off on the switch there’s still an element of some kind of ABS cutting in on the pedal. No actual faults pop up but ESP cuts in. Very annoying


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incy-spider

ClioSport Club Member
ah ok, yeah it must detect the different from expected wheel speeds due to more lock being dialled in, frustrating but there will be a solution I'm sure!

I’m not sure if it’s wheel speed or the degrees of yaw it’s sensing at what it thinks is a small amount of steering input


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Martin_172

ClioSport Club Member
I’m not sure if it’s wheel speed or the degrees of yaw it’s sensing at what it thinks is a small amount of steering input


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Id have thought if it was activating the ABS that's going to be due to it sensing a slower than expected speed so thinking you are starting to get lockup. Does it only do it at slow speeds? Id check the live data and make sure the sensors are all reading correctly in a straight line.
 

incy-spider

ClioSport Club Member
Id have thought if it was activating the ABS that's going to be due to it sensing a slower than expected speed so thinking you are starting to get lockup. Does it only do it at slow speeds? Id check the live data and make sure the sensors are all reading correctly in a straight line.

It was all fine before I did the short rack mate, I’ll take a look at all suggestions though [emoji106][emoji106]


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