Looking for advice on cams / future NA build (Clio 182)

[Archie’sclio]

Hi all,


I'm after a bit of advice from people who have been down this route already.


My Clio 182 is primarily a hillclimb car, although it's still road legal. Current spec is:

• RS Tuning remap (175bhp)
• Decat
• Performance exhaust
• Performance induction kit
• Quaife ATB LSD
• Lightweight flywheel
• ARP rod bolts
• Baffled sump

The long-term aim is to build the best naturally aspirated F4R I reasonably can over the next few years. I'm not looking for a turbo conversion or engine swap.


Originally I was looking at buying:

• Cat Cams 422
• Full OEM timing kit
• OEM dephaser
• OEM water pump
• Camshaft seal/hardware kit
• Then possibly uprated valve springs while it's apart.

I've priced it all up and it comes to roughly:

• £1,124 without springs
• £1,278 with uprated springs

I'd then still need to get it remapped afterwards (probably back at RS Tuning), so the total project cost would end up somewhere around £1,700-£2,000.


However, I've also been looking at the Engine Dynamics Level 2 package (£1,799), which includes:

• Their custom Piper cams
• Timing belt kit
• Cam seals
• Oil & filter
• Labour
• Dyno before/after
• ECU calibration

On paper it seems like really good value considering the labour and mapping are included.


My questions are:

1. Has anyone run the Engine Dynamics Piper cams? How do they compare to Cat 422s?
2. If your goal was the strongest naturally aspirated engine possible over time (ported head, maybe higher compression later etc.), would you still choose the Engine Dynamics package or would you go Cat 422s?
3. Would you fit uprated valve springs while doing the cams, or stick with OEM?
4. Is there anything else you'd replace while it's apart?

Finally, because my car is already mapped by RS Tuning, I'm wondering whether it's better to continue developing the car with one tuner, or whether people have switched between RS Tuning and Engine Dynamics without any issues.


I'd really appreciate hearing from people with first-hand experience rather than just catalogue figures.


Thanks!

 

[Tonyclio]

Hi,

Happy to provide some advice based on my experiences.

I compete regularly in my Clio182 and I'm usually in the top three with several class wind in1B over the past couple of years, so reasonably quick car.

You mention R/S Tuning so are you 'local to Leeds and do you compete at Harewood?

 

[Tonyclio]

Hi,

Happy to provide some advice based on my experiences.

I compete regularly in my Clio182 and I'm usually in the top three with several class wind in1B over the past couple of years, so reasonably quick car.

You mention R/S Tuning so are you 'local to Leeds and do you compete at Harewood?

Just to add, I went with an Engine Dynamics Level 2 build with a few extras which I have been very very pleased with. Car is running Jenvey throttle bodies and Gen 90 ECU.
I went with 2421 Cat Cams as for hill climbing its not about outright BHP, you need good mid range torque for really tight corners which you find on hillclimbs but not track days.

I initally had my car mapped at RS Tuning but was not a good experience. Took car to EFI and Chris after three hours found a lot more power (220BHP), this back in 2022.
Had the car recently remapped at Daytuner and Damien found a further 3 BHP and more mid range torque.
I've spent a lot of money on mapping!!

Happy to provide more input.

Just one further thought if you want the best naturally aspirated F4R engine money can buy you are probably looking at over £20k. Pure Motorsports 275 BHP engine is £12k and does not include any throttle bodies, exhaust manifold, ECU, flywheel or ancillaries.

 

[Archie’sclio]

Hi,

Happy to provide some advice based on my experiences.

I compete regularly in my Clio182 and I'm usually in the top three with several class wind in1B over the past couple of years, so reasonably quick car.

You mention R/S Tuning so are you 'local to Leeds and do you compete at Harewood?

Hi, thanks for the reply.


Yeah, I run in 1B. I’ve done Harewood once before, but I mainly compete at Loton Park, Barbon and Scammonden. I’m based in Derbyshire, so RS Tuning isn’t too bad for me.


I’d definitely be interested to hear your advice and what’s worked well on your car.

 

[Archie’sclio]

Hi, thanks for the reply.


Yeah, I run in 1B. I’ve done Harewood once before, but I mainly compete at Loton Park, Barbon and Scammonden. I’m based in Derbyshire, so RS Tuning isn’t too bad for me.


I’d definitely be interested to hear your advice and what’s worked well on your car.

Thanks, that’s really useful.


That’s interesting about the 2421s. One of the reasons I was looking at the 2422s was with a view to eventually doing a ported head and maybe higher compression further down the line, rather than just stopping at cams.


Out of interest, if you were starting again with my current setup (175bhp, exhaust, decat, induction kit, Quaife etc.), would you still go 2421s over the 2422s for a hillclimb car?

 

[Tonyclio]

Me personally and I sure there will be other posters with opinions, I would still have gone for the 2421's as it sooo important to have an engine that will pull strongly for low revs rather than waiting for it to come 'on cam' higher up the rev range. If it was focussded on trackdays it would be 2422's no question.

You didn't answer my earlier questions??

If you are looking to hill climb I would start with suspension and tyres, if you have not already done so.

 

[Archie’sclio]

Me personally and I sure there will be other posters with opinions, I would still have gone for the 2421's as it sooo important to have an engine that will pull strongly for low revs rather than waiting for it to come 'on cam' higher up the rev range. If it was focussded on trackdays it would be 2422's no question.

You didn't answer my earlier questions??

If you are looking to hill climb I would start with suspension and tyres, if you have not already done so.

Sorry, I completely missed your earlier questions!


I’m based in Derbyshire, so RS Tuning isn’t too far away. I do run in 1B and mainly compete at Loton Park, Barbon and Scammonden. I’ve only done Harewood once so far.


Suspension-wise it’s on Bilstein B14s with PMS top mounts, polybushes and a Quaife ATB. I also run 15” AR-1s for competition.


I suppose my dilemma is whether to build it as the best hillclimb engine I can, or build it as the best naturally aspirated F4R I can over time. That’s why I was originally looking at the 2422s.

 

[Tonyclio]

In my opinon hillclimb 2421's best aspirated engine 2422's.

However there are so many other elements to a competitive hillclimb Clio which would place demands upon your hard earned money!

Bilstein B14's are a bit soft great for road , but for out and out hill climb car you need something a bit stiffer and tuneable i'm running AST5100's, but BC racing are also good and cheaper.

Your will find a Gripper diff a better option for hillclimbing, but not great for the road and they do wearunlike a Quaife. A fellow competitor recently changed from a Quaife to a Gripper diff and knocked well over a second off his already very quick time.

Get some Yokohama A052's they are the 'go to' tyre for hillclimbs. I guarantee they WILL reduce your times!!

 

[Struggler]

Might be worth having a look at my thread as I am building something similar! .
shameless plug: https://cliosport.net/threads/ph1-revival.847226/

One very important thing to note that might ruin your plan is that the 422 cams are not compatible with the standard pistons. The valve overlap is too big.
Also CatCam also suggest that they are not compatible with OEM valve springs, so its quite involved to go for 422s over 421s.

Interesting that you're being very specific about 5502421/2, any reason for retaining the VVT if its just for hillclimb? I have gone for 5503422 for my track car deleting the VVT, mainly for system simplicity/reliability than anything else.

 

[Archie’sclio]

In my opinon hillclimb 2421's best aspirated engine 2422's.

However there are so many other elements to a competitive hillclimb Clio which would place demands upon your hard earned money!

Bilstein B14's are a bit soft great for road , but for out and out hill climb car you need something a bit stiffer and tuneable i'm running AST5100's, but BC racing are also good and cheaper.

Your will find a Gripper diff a better option for hillclimbing, but not great for the road and they do wearunlike a Quaife. A fellow competitor recently changed from a Quaife to a Gripper diff and knocked well over a second off his already very quick time.

Get some Yokohama A052's they are the 'go to' tyre for hillclimbs. I guarantee they WILL reduce your times!!

Thanks for the advice, I really appreciate it.


I do like my B14s, even though I know they’re a bit soft compared to something like ASTs. I’m only 19 and on an apprenticeship wage, so I’m just trying to improve the car bit by bit as I can afford it.


I think cams are going to be my next upgrade as I’m really happy with how the car handles at the moment. I’d love a set of A052s as well, but they’re just a bit out of my budget at the minute. I’ve been running AR-1s this season, but they’re getting towards the end of their life, so we’ll see how good the Christmas bonus is!


I’ll definitely keep the Gripper diff in mind for the future. Thanks again for taking the time to give me some advice, it’s really appreciated. I think I’ll take your advice and go for the 421s.


Cheers,
Archie

 

[Archie’sclio]

Might be worth having a look at my thread as I am building something similar! .
shameless plug: https://cliosport.net/threads/ph1-revival.847226/

One very important thing to note that might ruin your plan is that the 422 cams are not compatible with the standard pistons. The valve overlap is too big.
Also CatCam also suggest that they are not compatible with OEM valve springs, so its quite involved to go for 422s over 421s.

Interesting that you're being very specific about 5502421/2, any reason for retaining the VVT if its just for hillclimb? I have gone for 5503422 for my track car deleting the VVT, mainly for system simplicity/reliability than anything else.

Thanks, I’ll definitely have a read through your build thread.


That’s really interesting about the 422s. I wasn’t aware there could be piston clearance issues with the standard pistons, so that’s definitely something I’ll look into before buying anything.


The reason I was looking at the 5502422/S cams was because my long-term plan is to keep developing the engine over the next few years, but after reading a few replies I’m starting to think the 421s might be the better option for how I actually use the car.


As for keeping the VVT, the car is still road driven as well as hillclimbed, so I wanted to keep the low and mid-range drivability.


Out of interest, did you look at the 421s before deciding to delete the VVT and go with the 3422s, or was it always going to be a dedicated track setup?

 

[Struggler]

As I understand it vvt is at its full 16degree advance by about 1600rpm, so really only serving idle.

What actually happened, was that I bought the 3422s cheap online without really doing enough research. Followed the catcam direction to change the valve springs and got some headwork while I was at it. Then I read that I needed to change the pistons for it to be compatible, so kicked myself and ordered some 3421s instead. Theeeen when I started the ending. I realised it was down on compression on one cylinder that could only be the bottom end, turned out to be bad rings and some bore corrosion so I needed to change the piston anyway. At that point I pivoted back to the 422s and sold the 421s.

So yeh it's been a bit of a journey and an expensive one at that!