Heel Toeing in a 182?

[Ian_182]

Nice info. When did you own your williams and when did you own your 172?

EVO did an article on the willy against the 172 when it came out and they had the cars set up with all there tech on them to measure all the cars outputs.Like braking ,G in corner,0-60 etc etc.The willy they used was a mint 1 owner thing with silly low miles too,so it was a good match against the new 172...

But i suppose all there technology is meaningless in your world and the experience they have acumulated over the last 25 years is nonsense...lol

 

[bradharding24]

EVO did an article on the willy against the 172 when it came out and they had the cars set up with all there tech on them to measure all the cars outputs.Like braking ,G in corner,0-60 etc etc.The willy they used was a mint 1 owner thing with silly low miles too,so it was a good match against the new 172...

But i suppose all there technology is meaningless in your world and the experience they have acumulated over the last 25 years is nonsense...lol

So if you havnt owned both then your opinion is based on what someone else told you. Maybe they lied to you? Youll never know.

 

[bradharding24]

We have a Williams and a 172 in our house and have owned Williams Clio's since 2002. The 172 brakes are miles better, not even close.

Nice driving by the way, do you do experience days?

Cheers for the info. Please post up the data from your braking distance experiment.

Whats that? You havnt done one?

Well how do you know the brakes are better?

 

[ForceIndia]

Cheers for the info. Please post up the data from your braking distance experiment.

Whats that? You havnt done one?

Well how do you know the brakes are better?

Neither have you, plonker.

 

[alanc1000]

Cheers for the info. Please post up the data from your braking distance experiment.

Whats that? You havnt done one?

Well how do you know the brakes are better?

can you post up the data from your test Robert?

 

[ForceIndia]

Brad, are you a taxi driver?

 

[bradharding24]

can you post up the data from your test Robert?

Yes sure can. Ill do it on friday when i get my lap top back as the data is on there. Got data over an average of 5 runs braking from 70 to 0 for a standard 172, 4 standard williams, a focus st, 2 rally cars, my dad's megane and an MR2. Controlled conditions.

 

[Sir_Dave]

Yes sure can. Ill do it on friday when i get my lap top back as the data is on there. Got data over an average of 5 runs braking from 70 to 0 for a standard 172, 4 standard williams, a focus st, 2 rally cars, my dad's megane and an MR2. Controlled conditions.

Maybe post your CV as well

Just to clear up the 'experience' questions ...

 

[alanc1000]

Yes sure can. Ill do it on friday when i get my lap top back as the data is on there. Got data over an average of 5 runs braking from 70 to 0 for a standard 172, 4 standard williams, a focus st, 2 rally cars, my dad's megane and an MR2. Controlled conditions.

thanks robert barrington, much appreciated. I take its this was an independent test, without you behind the wheel?

 

[bradharding24]

Anyway lets keep it back on topic as the mods dont like this sidetracking.

 

[alanc1000]

Anyway lets keep it back on topic as the mods dont like this sidetracking.

its you that sidetracks.

So - back to heel toeing, yes it really works although have never tried.

 

[Craigus]

Cheers for the info. Please post up the data from your braking distance experiment.

Whats that? You havnt done one?

Well how do you know the brakes are better?

Why does everything have to be based on facts and figures? If the brakes feel better in one car aginst another, why do you have to argue with someone about it.

Why don't you just admit you aren't a rally driver or a racing instructor, I'm sure you do know a lot of things about cars, but arguing with some of the most respected tuners on here, it's getting a bit old TBH, and do you not care that everyone thinks you are a twit?

 

[Scadden182]

the best of it is, hes quoting Williams' and 172's against arguments in a thread that is based around the 182.


Tr00liing teh Internetz for teh wiiinz

 

[bradharding24]

Why does everything have to be based on facts and figures?

Because facts and figures are what tell us objectively that something is likely true, or likely false.

Without facts and figures we get into subjective arguments which are distorted by what people want to believe and hope to be true.

Empirical evidence is king.

 

[KungFuSpaghetti]

Cheers for the info. Please post up the data from your braking distance experiment.

Whats that? You havnt done one?

Well how do you know the brakes are better?

You just said below to Ian his opinion was based on what someone else just told him, so as we own one of each at what point are we allowed an opinion on it? lol

So if you havnt owned both then your opinion is based on what someone else told you. Maybe they lied to you? Youll never know.

Other than subjective opinion, I know what brakes I would prefer to have to rely upon in an emergency.

 

[Jamie]

Brakes on my 172 and 182 have been much better than the Williams I had. Even with the 4pots the brakes on the 172 and 182 feel alot better.

 

[bradharding24]

Brakes on my 172 and 182 have been much better than the Williams I had. Even with the 4pots the brakes on the 172 and 182 feel alot better.

They feel better because there is more servo. That doesnt mean they stop the car quicker.

The limting factor in stopping a modern car is the tyres. The speed it stops is related to the weight of the car and the grip from the tyres. Caliper combination and design has little do do with braking distance (much as people would like to think it has).

The williams and 182 calipers are both able to lock the front wheels in the dry if you stamp on the pedal (assuming abs is disabled on the 182). In other words the caliper is able to r****d the rotation of the wheel. Therefore the limiting factor is the tyre and the weight of the car. As the grip from the tyre is almost identical in both cars, the stopping distance (ie how good the brakes are) comes down to the weight of the car. As the williams weighs less it will stop more quickly.

I defy anyone to prove to me that a williams weighing under 1000 kg will not stop more quickly that a 182 weighing over 1000 kgs in the hands of a decent driver.

I am prepared to put a substantial amount of money on this if anyone wants to go to the effort of setting up a proper scientific test.

 

[Jamie]

I not long crashed after I got my Williams as it did not stop at a round about due to the brakes. My old 1.4 RT brakes were better. I had the system checked out and 4 pots fitted, nothing was mechanically wrong but they were still poor.

 

[bradharding24]

Then you bought a nail. Check out the pic on Martin on two wheels on track (Cadwell i think). Nothing wrong with the standard brakes.

 

[Jamie]

Lol, you didn't read it did you. Next time read my replies before posting.

 

[Scadden182]

I defy anyone to prove to me that a williams weighing under 1000 kg will not stop more quickly that a 182 weighing over 1000 kgs in the hands of a decent driver.

I am prepared to put a substantial amount of money on this if anyone wants to go to the effort of setting up a proper scientific test.

bet u £5 my 182 weighing over 1000 kgs will stop, before a williams weighing under 1000 kg.

 

[bradharding24]

Lol, you didn't read it did you. Next time read my replies before posting.

You said the brakes were poor. As generally the brakes are not poor on a cared for Williams, id say you had a bad example and therefore any statement you make in comparison to your 172 / 182 is flawed.

 

[bradharding24]

bet u £5 my 182 weighing over 1000 kgs will stop, before a williams weighing under 1000 kg.

I was thinking more about 500 pounds.

 

[Jamie]

Yes I said they were poor. I also said I had them checked out. A few times actually. When I got it, before and after the 4pots. So I know there was nothing wrong with the brakes. Checks were done at different garages also, increasing independance.

 

[bradharding24]

Yes I said they were poor. I also said I had them checked out. A few times actually. When I got it, before and after the 4pots. So I know there was nothing wrong with the brakes. Checks were done at different garages also, increasing independance.

There was obvioulsy somthing wrong as they didnt stop you at a round about. I'd sack your mechanic.

 

[Scadden182]

There was obvioulsy somthing wrong as they didnt stop you at a round about. I'd sack your mechanic.

did you have a look at his brakes before recommending a new mechanic?

 

[Jamie]

There was obvioulsy somthing wrong as they didnt stop you at a round about. I'd sack your mechanic.

Lol, again you didn't read it did you. I didn't have it checked several times by the same person... It was all different garages. They were not all wrong.

 

[Scadden182]

he'll probably reply saying ur tyres were s**t

 

[Scadden182]

in response to saying the willi wood stop before the 182.

In an ideal situation, provided both vehicles had the same coefficient of friction between wheels and ground, both would stop in the same length of time. If the 182 were, fo example +5% times the mass of the williams, the 182 would have +5% times the momentum and +5% times the braking force. you would think renault would have made the 182 slightly better at stopping due its increased weight compard to the williams.

 

[172Ben]

You bought a nail jamie.

Simple!

 

[Ian_182]

This is great.Even when i post info from a track based test with all the test gear that EVO use,stromba still comes back with the same s**t....

Makes me laugh all the same.....

 

[bradharding24]

in response to saying the willi wood stop before the 182.

In an ideal situation, provided both vehicles had the same coefficient of friction between wheels and ground, both would stop in the same length of time. If the 182 were, fo example +5% times the mass of the williams, the 182 would have +5% times the momentum and +5% times the braking force. you would think renault would have made the 182 slightly better at stopping due its increased weight compard to the williams.

Renault dont make the tyres so they cant make the braking performance better.

Heres a simple test. Find a non-abs car. Go out on a soaking wet road, drive at 45 miles per hour, then stamp on the brakes as hard as you can. What will happen? The tyres will lock and you will skid to a hault. I think this proves that in the wet, the limiting factor in stopping is the tyre.

So if its easy to see the tyre is the limiting factor in the wet, why so hard to see it in the dry? Do the same 45 miles per hour and stamp on the pedal as hard as you can. What happens? You skid.

The fact is the best way to reduce the braking distance is to fit a slick racing tyre. More grip = less braking distance. Why? Because the tyre is the limiting factor in braking. Not the caliper. Not the pads. Not the discs. The tyre.

So renault might have fitted larger discs to a 182. They might have added abs (which personally i think is s**t). They might have increased the servo. But when the limiting factor in stopping is how much grip you have, this is all irrelevant.

 

[alanc1000]

Renault dont make the tyres so they cant make the braking performance better.

Heres a simple test. Find a non-abs car. Go out on a soaking wet road, drive at 45 miles per hour, then stamp on the brakes as hard as you can. What will happen? The tyres will lock and you will skid to a hault. I think this proves that in the wet, the limiting factor in stopping is the tyre.

So if its easy to see the tyre is the limiting factor in the wet, why so hard to see it in the dry? Do the same 45 miles per hour and stamp on the pedal as hard as you can. What happens? You skid.

The fact is the best way to reduce the braking distance is to fit a slick racing tyre. More grip = less braking distance. Why? Because the tyre is the limiting factor in braking. Not the caliper. Not the pads. Not the discs. The tyre.

So renault might have fitted larger discs to a 182. They might have added abs (which personally i think is s**t). They might have increased the servo. But when the limiting factor in stopping is how much grip you have, this is all irrelevant.

IIRC the stock tyres on the 182 were designed specifically for it? Michelin Pilot Exalto?

 

[172Ben]

He wont be replying.
I heard that was poppy c**k, that they werent actually designed for it?

Sure i read it on here?

 

[alanc1000]

He wont be replying.
I heard that was poppy c**k, that they werent actually designed for it?

Sure i read it on here?

They were "developed" for the 182, and then were available as a mainstream replacment tyre in 2004.

 

[172Ben]

O well. My heads messed today. Must of read it somewhere where they were talking poo

 

[Ian_182]

This guy is such a laugh....

Long may it continue.
I had many a blast in my 02 172 and my 05 182 with williams clio's and i won all my tarmac races...but i guess steven hawking was in the williams...

 

[realnumber 1]

They feel better because there is more servo. That doesnt mean they stop the car quicker.

The limting factor in stopping a modern car is the tyres. The speed it stops is related to the weight of the car and the grip from the tyres. Caliper combination and design has little do do with braking distance (much as people would like to think it has).

The williams and 182 calipers are both able to lock the front wheels in the dry if you stamp on the pedal (assuming abs is disabled on the 182). In other words the caliper is able to r****d the rotation of the wheel. Therefore the limiting factor is the tyre and the weight of the car. As the grip from the tyre is almost identical in both cars, the stopping distance (ie how good the brakes are) comes down to the weight of the car. As the williams weighs less it will stop more quickly.

I defy anyone to prove to me that a williams weighing under 1000 kg will not stop more quickly that a 182 weighing over 1000 kgs in the hands of a decent driver.

I am prepared to put a substantial amount of money on this if anyone wants to go to the effort of setting up a proper scientific test.

Locking the wheels might be posible in both cars, but I'm sure your aware that locking the wheels to stop is NOT the quickest way to stop a car. When braking as quickly as possible you also have to look at things like the heat build up that occours which will have an effect on stopping distance.
My mates old Capri could lock its wheels and probably weighs less than a clio. If it had the same rubber on I bet the Clio would stop first. Face it brakes have improved over the years....

 

[Matt@Stealthsport]

Hi my name is Matt and I don't need to pretend to be other people on a car forum and spout meaningless random s**t and argue the toss.

Guess what Brad Harding 24, King Stromba etc or whatever your calling yourself these days.

I amongst pretty much everyone in the Renault scene think you are a f**king joke and should go and join Williams lovers anonymous or something.

What is even sadder is you have been doing this s**t for years and haven't seemed to move on just a little.

Dear god man get a f**king life.

Sorry if this a little off topic but hey I just felt this needed to be said.

 

[alanc1000]

Locking the wheels might be posible in both cars, but I'm sure your aware that locking the wheels to stop is NOT the quickest way to stop a car. When braking as quickly as possible you also have to look at things like the heat build up that occours which will have an effect on stopping distance.
My mates old Capri could lock its wheels and probably weighs less than a clio. If it had the same rubber on I bet the Clio would stop first. Face it brakes have improved over the years....

this is deffo the case or else lorries and busses wouldnt need massive brakes as their bigger tyres and more wheels would make it stop just fine.

Brad has lost it i think.