Heel Toeing in a 182?

[ForceIndia]

I'm only a size8, never had any problems?

 

[Jonny1*2]

I'm only a size8, never had any problems?

Bears have fat feet no

 

[realnumber 1]

Wow, this bradharding24 guy seems to really know his s**t lol.

 

[Ralphizzle]

So Nick do you heel and toe now? LOL

Nine pages of amusement...

It's good the F4R has no flywheel at all... so we NEED to match the revs innit?
Just like a proper racecar.

 

[Nick 182]

So Nick do you heel and toe now? LOL

Nine pages of amusement...

It's good the F4R has no flywheel at all... so we NEED to match the revs innit?
Just like a proper racecar.

LOL! I tried some "practice, practice, practice" when I was out in the car yesterday but kept slipping off the brake pedal which gives me the fear tbh!

I think the problem is I keep practicing under light braking and it is obviously easier under heavy braking. Trouble is most of my driving is through towns and on motorways so I'll need to start driving everywhere at track speeds to get any good! I used to have a classic mini and could heel-toe under light and heavy breaking which is why I am bugged by the whole thing!

 

[bradharding24]

LOL! I tried some "practice, practice, practice" when I was out in the car yesterday but kept slipping off the brake pedal which gives me the fear tbh!

I think the problem is I keep practicing under light braking and it is obviously easier under heavy braking. Trouble is most of my driving is through towns and on motorways so I'll need to start driving everywhere at track speeds to get any good! I used to have a classic mini and could heel-toe under light and heavy breaking which is why I am bugged by the whole thing!

Mini was non-servo?

 

[p@blo]

Those who can't, teach?

aren't you a teacher????

F**king priceless tbh :lolup:

 

[ForceIndia]

Mini was non-servo?

What are you qualifications Bradley? Racing instructor? Advanced driving instructor? Gran Turismo maestro?

 

[p@blo]

What are you qualifications Bradley? Racing instructor? Advanced driving instructor? Gran Turismo maestro?

Isn't his name Robert?

 

[ForceIndia]

Isn't his name Robert?

Or Jenson?

 

[Matt@Stealthsport]

Or Jenson?

When I grow up I wanna be able to drive like Brad Harding 24.

 

[Bloooor]

You complete contradict yourself. He IS worried about smoothness...not weight transition in this case but the smoothness of engaging the dogs. Also this Jean chap seems pretty handy behind the wheel, so perhaps he is capable of deciding that he wants to upset the car with the handbrake (acting on the rear wheels) but would like to heel toe to stop the front wheels decelerating even more.

I'm going to try and summarise the info. in this thread so it's actually useful...

BENEFITS

Mechanical Sympathy

• It avoids using the clutch as another braking surface which will obviously wear it prematurely.
• Avoids unnecessary stress and strain on gear box internals as the speeds of input and output are matched before re-engaging the clutch rather than being forced to match.
• It allows you to rev match for non-syncro (dog) boxes which as you've stated helps engage the gears and reduces wear. This is equally applicable to a syncro box as you're not working the syncros so hard. It easier for them to match a difference of 100rpm rather than 2500rpm.

Balance & Smoothness

• Prevents extra weight transfer unsettling the balance of the car when re-engaging the clutch. Important when braking hard into a corner. If you're on track you'll often be braking on the threshold of grip/slip and a non-matched shift might be enough to lock the wheels.
• Also of benefit to passengers, a seamless shift is much more comfortable as your head isn't thrown forward as if someone just pressed the brakes even harder. One of the main reasons to use it on road as well as track!
• Prevents locking the rear wheels in a rear wheel drive car.

Skill

• It's fun to learn new skills and put them into practice. Be that heel & toe, left foot braking or taking an advanced driving course.

THE TECHNIQUE

Pivot w/heel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuoZeuSgEj4

Pivot w/side: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdWSyrqEnE4

The videos above show the two main techniques. You can pivot on the ball of your foot and use the side of your heel or you can 'roll' the side of your foot across. Although the name suggests toe I would avoid trying to use your big toe for braking. The most important part of the maneuver is the braking. Safety first and all that. So I would use the ball of your foot under your big toe.

The Clio is one of the best cars to heel and toe in that I have driven. If you're having trouble doing it then it's likely to be down to inexperience rather than the type of shoes or the size of your feet.

Some cars will not allow you to heel and toe and they cut the throttle when you brake...modern VW's for example. Useless.

I would say that when driving the thinner the shoe the better, skate shoes have thick soles and give you no feel what so ever. If you heel toe properly you don't need the extra width of a special pedal or a big pair of shoes.

Would it be a good idea to create some threads that have factual information on advanced road and race craft driving techniques so people can fully understand the benefits of these techniques? If that is the case we can gather together all the info, filter out the rubbish and create an FAQ that is factual and informative?

An understanding of what goes on inside and engine and gear box will be of great help to full understanding the technique.

Grat right up and a very good idea for the club imo. A section like that would benefit me so much as I woundn't have to nag anyone with questions.

 

[Ian_182]

 

[simon135]

LOL! I tried some "practice, practice, practice" when I was out in the car yesterday but kept slipping off the brake pedal which gives me the fear tbh!

I think the problem is I keep practicing under light braking and it is obviously easier under heavy braking. Trouble is most of my driving is through towns and on motorways so I'll need to start driving everywhere at track speeds to get any good! I used to have a classic mini and could heel-toe under light and heavy breaking which is why I am bugged by the whole thing!

Nick, what technique are you using ? Lift the heel, or roll the foot.

I can see that you might have a problem under light braking with your foot slipping or modulating the brake if you lift the heel, twist and work the throttle with your heel. However, if you roll your foot and work the throttle with the outside of your foot I really don't see the need to start modifying the pedal box as has been suggested.

 

[simon135]

Grat right up and a very good idea for the club imo. A section like that would benefit me so much as I woundn't have to nag anyone with questions.

Agreed, if only there was sufficient interest !

Some years ago I was involved in a driving techniques forum, but it fizzelled out because there was no discussion about rolling road figures, silver vision lights or which exhaust sounded best.

If you have questions though, ask. There are some people (actually, quite a few) on here that know what they are talking about and have the experience to back it up.

The subject is pretty well covered though if you venture beyond Cliosport.net, here's a few that spring to mind:

http://www.drivinghandbook.co.uk/
http://www.creativecarcontrol.co.uk/
http://www.smartdriving.co.uk/Better_driving_online/index.htm

 

[Jonny1*2]

lol, what relivance is that nice car though

 

[alanc1000]

What are you qualifications Bradley? Racing instructor? Advanced driving instructor? Gran Turismo maestro?

by the state of his driving on that youtube clip he's none of those.

 

[Jasey]

Simon de Banke - world record holder for driving sideways (I believe it was 2 hours 11mins or so when he ran out of fuel) and general top bloke

Not sure everyone on Scoobynet would agree with the 'Top Bloke' part .

But he can drive sideways

 

[WillyWonka]

lol, what relivance is that nice car though

Its Kingstrom....brad!

 

[bradharding24]

Left hand drive?

 

[Ian_182]

That is willy number 1

And stromba in it

 

[Nick 182]

Nick, what technique are you using ? Lift the heel, or roll the foot.

I can see that you might have a problem under light braking with your foot slipping or modulating the brake if you lift the heel, twist and work the throttle with your heel. However, if you roll your foot and work the throttle with the outside of your foot I really don't see the need to start modifying the pedal box as has been suggested.

I roll my foot. The need to modify it is cos I can't reach it with the outside edge of my foot. Ideally, you want the pivot point of your foot which is in the centre of the ball of your foot, to still be in contact with the brake pedal, albeit on the far right hand side of the brake pedal. This will minimise the amount by which you push down or come off the brakes when heel-toeing (before practice makes you good at it and you can deal with a pedal thats further away).

 

[ForceIndia]

Left hand drive?

Are you a stunt driver?

 

[Nick 182]

Mini was non-servo?

The mini was an X-reg Rover mini with servo assist. Forgive me, but how would this make a difference?

 

[knocker]

A very interesting read i race a spaceframe stiletto with a dogbox and sprint a 172 Cup find i need to Heel & Toe in both for good lap times!!

 

[bradharding24]

The mini was an X-reg Rover mini with servo assist. Forgive me, but how would this make a difference?

Because on non-servo brakes, you dont get the problem of over pushing the brakes when heel toeing. Obviously because the pressure you need is much greater so you have a finer control over them. Which is one reason race cars run them.

When youve driven a non-servo car for a while you realise how stupidly over sensitive the standard clio brakes are. People mistake the 172 brakes for being 'better' than the williams brake, however, the difference comes down to the 172 having more servo. Modern cars feel like they have better brakes because they have more servo assist.

I cant comment on a 182 as i wouldnt be seen dead in one so wont drive one, but i assume they are the same as the 172.

 

[alanc1000]

Brad are you Robert Barrington and was that you in that youtube clip posted previously or is that a myth?

 

[ForceIndia]

This gets better and better. So now the 172 has inadequate brakes. Odd that when tested the stopping distance was shorter than a f360 and the 911 of the day.
Are you a taxi driver?

 

[m4rkie23]

lol. fairplay to the mcrae. LEGEND!!!!

left foot braking, driving like that, and talking......

[YOUTUBE]BMEqOGelrwj[/YOUTUBE]

 

[ForceIndia]

Brad are you Robert Barrington and was that you in that youtube clip posted previously or is that a myth?

He's incapable of a straight answer sadly. He seems to deliberately type like a dyslexic yoda in order to bewilder.

 

[drhowser]

He's incapable of a straight answer sadly. He seems to deliberately type like a dyslexic yoda in order to bewilder.

and ignores the points that people raise, but jumps on something with a tenous link to the topic?

 

[alanc1000]

He's incapable of a straight answer sadly. He seems to deliberately type like a dyslexic yoda in order to bewilder.

having studied pyschology for a number of years, i would suggest a case of borderline personality disorder which falls in to the emotional or erratic category of disorders. Symptoms include uncertainty about personal identity (making up a fictional name), or possibly paranoid personality (interprets other peoples actions as hostile and may feel constantly rebuffed).

Or maybe he's the stig and is actually a motor sport genius.

 

[Henry]

wtf?!

just ignore him if he doesn't want to play.

 

[bradharding24]

This gets better and better. So now the 172 has inadequate brakes. Odd that when tested the stopping distance was shorter than a f360 and the 911 of the day.
Are you a taxi driver?

I never said that they were inadequate. I said many people mistake the overly servo assisted pedal for improved braking. The stopping distance on cars is usually related to primarily to their weight and grip. Grip in turn coming from the tyres. So it is no suprise to find a clio stopping faster than a ferrari. Just as a williams will stop faster than a 172 as it weighs less but has similar levels of grip. Its just simple physics. Nothing magical about the brakes on the road clio.

 

[Ian_182]

The williams never stoped better than the 172

The 172 out brakes and carries more g's throught the corners

 

[bradharding24]

The williams never stoped better than the 172

The 172 out brakes and carries more g's throught the corners

Nice info. When did you own your williams and when did you own your 172?

 

[p@blo]

Brad are you Robert Barrington and was that you in that youtube clip posted previously or is that a myth?

This video? Couple of the comments are quite amusing.

[youtube]pw0q3sIed5c[/youtube]

Whats with the lock to lock at the beginning btw? :lolup:

 

[alanc1000]

Because on non-servo brakes, you dont get the problem of over pushing the brakes when heel toeing. Obviously because the pressure you need is much greater so you have a finer control over them. Which is one reason race cars run them.

When youve driven a non-servo car for a while you realise how stupidly over sensitive the standard clio brakes are. People mistake the 172 brakes for being 'better' than the williams brake, however, the difference comes down to the 172 having more servo. Modern cars feel like they have better brakes because they have more servo assist.

I cant comment on a 182 as i wouldnt be seen dead in one so wont drive one, but i assume they are the same as the 172.

pretty much the same on the brake side of things.

What do you drive now, is it really your mums Williams or is that a myth too?

 

[T3gav]

A very interesting read i race a spaceframe stiletto with a dogbox and sprint a 172 Cup find i need to Heel & Toe in both for good lap times!!

Awesome, any pics of the stiletto?

 

[KungFuSpaghetti]

Just as a williams will stop faster than a 172 as it weighs less but has similar levels of grip. Its just simple physics.

We have a Williams and a 172 in our house and have owned Williams Clio's since 2002. The 172 brakes are miles better, not even close.

Nice driving by the way, do you do experience days?