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Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project [Year 3 - Engine and Chassis Rebuild]
Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project
Quite alot done today - set about fitting the whole 172 servo/master cylinder setup to the car.
I got hold of a 172 Cup Master cylinder a while back to fit to the car, as I was still running the '1.2' item from a scrap yard that had a bit too much pedal travel for my liking. After trying to fit it and realising the thread sizes were different for the lines...
And then with the help from Andrew Cooke realising that the master cylinder would not seat into the valver servo properly due to the push rod being the wrong length - which would have probably meant that the brakes would never release once applied!
Anyway, so I decided to source a 172 servo to see if it would fit - I ended up getting one from a 172 Ph1. It was a bit rusty so painted it up during the week too.
The first job was to create two replacement brake lines with M12 fittings on the end, as the valver ones are M10. I didnt want to just re-flare the valver lines as they are steel, and in case I need to go back to them for any reason I still have them.
M10 vs M12..
Some copper pipe...
One O/S Front Line...
In place..
'1.2' Master Cylinder disconnected...
N/S Rear Line (other M12 fitting) Line Removed...
Next, disconnected the pedal-to-servo assembly...
And removed the servo - which was an absolute pain in the ar*e!
Valver vs 172 Ph1...
As you can see the pedal side of the push rod is a different length, with the 172 item being longer. I decided to re-drill the hole and cut it down to the same specification of the Valver (110mm length).
Valver (shorter)...
Drilled the hole slightly higher so there was more room 'above' the joint on the pedal, it seemed a bit tight on the valver setup...
Trimmed the whole thing down...
And fitted the 172 servo to the car...
I purposely made the hole for the pedal pin slightly smaller so it was not a mega loose fit (like the valver one was), as there was a bit of play in the pedal on the old setup. Seems a lot more solid like this...
Master cylinder comparison again...
Fitted the 172 Cup item to the servo, along with the two new lines - fits how its meant to with no force required to get it to sit into the servo fully...
The O/S rear line that I made only goes under the car to the passenger footwell, as they have a brake line joiner there as standard. Although, the engine side of the brake line is the female part, so I just decided to use a joiner and put a male union on my brake line...
I was going to fit the 172 reservoir, but it just didnt look right and was a bit too close to the back of the engine - so on the valver one went...
Bled the system and checked for leaks, everything seemend fine so tidied everything up to get it looking a bit better...
And that was pretty much it. Took it for a drive and it is a lot better than the crappy old 1.2 master cylinder, although I think the system needs bleeding again as there might be some air in there.
I also need to figure out if the 172 Cup master cylinder has any sort of bias control in the cylinder itself so I can setup the rear beam bias properly..
More soon!
Quite alot done today - set about fitting the whole 172 servo/master cylinder setup to the car.
I got hold of a 172 Cup Master cylinder a while back to fit to the car, as I was still running the '1.2' item from a scrap yard that had a bit too much pedal travel for my liking. After trying to fit it and realising the thread sizes were different for the lines...
And then with the help from Andrew Cooke realising that the master cylinder would not seat into the valver servo properly due to the push rod being the wrong length - which would have probably meant that the brakes would never release once applied!
Anyway, so I decided to source a 172 servo to see if it would fit - I ended up getting one from a 172 Ph1. It was a bit rusty so painted it up during the week too.
The first job was to create two replacement brake lines with M12 fittings on the end, as the valver ones are M10. I didnt want to just re-flare the valver lines as they are steel, and in case I need to go back to them for any reason I still have them.
M10 vs M12..
Some copper pipe...
One O/S Front Line...
In place..
'1.2' Master Cylinder disconnected...
N/S Rear Line (other M12 fitting) Line Removed...
Next, disconnected the pedal-to-servo assembly...
And removed the servo - which was an absolute pain in the ar*e!
Valver vs 172 Ph1...
As you can see the pedal side of the push rod is a different length, with the 172 item being longer. I decided to re-drill the hole and cut it down to the same specification of the Valver (110mm length).
Valver (shorter)...
Drilled the hole slightly higher so there was more room 'above' the joint on the pedal, it seemed a bit tight on the valver setup...
Trimmed the whole thing down...
And fitted the 172 servo to the car...
I purposely made the hole for the pedal pin slightly smaller so it was not a mega loose fit (like the valver one was), as there was a bit of play in the pedal on the old setup. Seems a lot more solid like this...
Master cylinder comparison again...
Fitted the 172 Cup item to the servo, along with the two new lines - fits how its meant to with no force required to get it to sit into the servo fully...
The O/S rear line that I made only goes under the car to the passenger footwell, as they have a brake line joiner there as standard. Although, the engine side of the brake line is the female part, so I just decided to use a joiner and put a male union on my brake line...
I was going to fit the 172 reservoir, but it just didnt look right and was a bit too close to the back of the engine - so on the valver one went...
Bled the system and checked for leaks, everything seemend fine so tidied everything up to get it looking a bit better...
And that was pretty much it. Took it for a drive and it is a lot better than the crappy old 1.2 master cylinder, although I think the system needs bleeding again as there might be some air in there.
I also need to figure out if the 172 Cup master cylinder has any sort of bias control in the cylinder itself so I can setup the rear beam bias properly..
More soon!
R5 GTT EFI Clio.
Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project
Good work dude.
Good work dude.
Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project
You dont have to swap the track at all for the engine conversion - you can use the standard valver setup if you want! Its just the engine thats swapped really, the rest stays the same gearbox etc - unless you are doing the whole widetrack conversion too..
If you are on about the 172 widetrack conversion you may aswell just do the Wiliams Widtrack instead - as the other main advantage of the 172 widetrack is the 172 brakes (as well as it being wider than williams widetrack).
Yeah I heard about this - but if its an ABS master cylinder it only has two outputs? Which would mean that I would be t-piecing the lines off for the front and rear as I need four outputs for the lines on my car (non-abs). The other advantage with swapping to a bigger servo too is less pedal effort/travel for the amount of braking force...
You dont have to swap the track at all for the engine conversion - you can use the standard valver setup if you want! Its just the engine thats swapped really, the rest stays the same gearbox etc - unless you are doing the whole widetrack conversion too..
If you are on about the 172 widetrack conversion you may aswell just do the Wiliams Widtrack instead - as the other main advantage of the 172 widetrack is the 172 brakes (as well as it being wider than williams widetrack).
Yeah I heard about this - but if its an ABS master cylinder it only has two outputs? Which would mean that I would be t-piecing the lines off for the front and rear as I need four outputs for the lines on my car (non-abs). The other advantage with swapping to a bigger servo too is less pedal effort/travel for the amount of braking force...
Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project
Despite being from an ABS equipped car, the Laguna master cylinder has 4 M10 outputs. I was also surprised to see this.
The non-ABS laguna master cylinder is like the one you have, two M10 and two M12 (i think) outputs.
You did well in upgrading the servo as well, as the brake pedal on mine is now very heavy. That's something I'll definitely change later.
Oh, and this master cylinder is supposed to be a perfect match for brembo 4 pots
Despite being from an ABS equipped car, the Laguna master cylinder has 4 M10 outputs. I was also surprised to see this.
The non-ABS laguna master cylinder is like the one you have, two M10 and two M12 (i think) outputs.
You did well in upgrading the servo as well, as the brake pedal on mine is now very heavy. That's something I'll definitely change later.
Oh, and this master cylinder is supposed to be a perfect match for brembo 4 pots
TVR Cerbera
Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project
F0xy, i believe that the only bias adjustment is in the rear bias valve (that's fixed at factory) on a cup braking system
F0xy, i believe that the only bias adjustment is in the rear bias valve (that's fixed at factory) on a cup braking system
Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project
Ah cool - good to know. Made the lines for M12 now so they can stay for a while lol.
Yeah, i had a research last night and it seems they have the bias adjuster at the back but it isnt connected to the beam and just runs a fixed bias?
So in theory I can just setup my rear bias valve like I did last time and all should be fine
Despite being from an ABS equipped car, the Laguna master cylinder has 4 M10 outputs. I was also surprised to see this.
The non-ABS laguna master cylinder is like the one you have, two M10 and two M12 (i think) outputs.
You did well in upgrading the servo as well, as the brake pedal on mine is now very heavy. That's something I'll definitely change later.
Oh, and this master cylinder is supposed to be a perfect match for brembo 4 pots
Ah cool - good to know. Made the lines for M12 now so they can stay for a while lol.
Yeah, i had a research last night and it seems they have the bias adjuster at the back but it isnt connected to the beam and just runs a fixed bias?
So in theory I can just setup my rear bias valve like I did last time and all should be fine
Paddy_g46
ClioSport Club Member
Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project
Oh right, good news for me then! So basically I need to get hold of an engine and a 172 top mount and then it will all be in ready to be wired up etc? Also is there any problems hooking up the valver brake cyclinder etc or do you just need to plumb it to the manifold?
Oh right, good news for me then! So basically I need to get hold of an engine and a 172 top mount and then it will all be in ready to be wired up etc? Also is there any problems hooking up the valver brake cyclinder etc or do you just need to plumb it to the manifold?
TVR Cerbera
Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project
Yeah fixed bias, not connected to beam. you could leave yours connected in theory if set up right for being lowered/less weight
Yeah, i had a research last night and it seems they have the bias adjuster at the back but it isnt connected to the beam and just runs a fixed bias?
So in theory I can just setup my rear bias valve like I did last time and all should be fine
Yeah fixed bias, not connected to beam. you could leave yours connected in theory if set up right for being lowered/less weight
Trophy Turbo :)
Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project
There is a Outlet off the Manifold. Make sure you geta mk1 172 engine
There is a Outlet off the Manifold. Make sure you geta mk1 172 engine
Trophy Turbo :)
Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project
ive noticed on my 182 that its electrical
ive noticed on my 182 that its electrical
Paddy_g46
ClioSport Club Member
Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project
Yeh why does it have to be a 172 engine other than the above? Also do you mean a phase 1? Phase 2 engine no good?
The cylinder is?
There is a Outlet off the Manifold. Make sure you geta mk1 172 engine
Yeh why does it have to be a 172 engine other than the above? Also do you mean a phase 1? Phase 2 engine no good?
The cylinder is?
Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project
Yep pretty much. Ideally you need a 172 Ph1 engine as said as it has the cable throttle body - the 172 Ph2 and 182's will not work as they are electric throttle...
You can use an engine from any car (my bottom end is acctually from a 182) but you NEED the 172 Ph1 inlet setup with the cable throttle etc.
Brake servo is the same as said above, just connects to the back of the inlet!
Yeah, I just took it out for a drive last time and kept adjusting the rear until it 'felt' right under heavy braking - il probably go out and set it up again..
He means the brake bias on the rear beam I think..
In summary - any engine will work, you just need the 172 Ph1 inlet setup with the cable throttle body
On a side note you'l need a 172 Ph1 engine loom and 172 ECU. You then need to get an emulator for the ECU (circa £30) and get the ECU virginised/decoded before fitting it. Once thats done the immobiliser is disabled and will run fine. The last major job really is making a downpipe - but its not too hard of a job.
Yep pretty much. Ideally you need a 172 Ph1 engine as said as it has the cable throttle body - the 172 Ph2 and 182's will not work as they are electric throttle...
You can use an engine from any car (my bottom end is acctually from a 182) but you NEED the 172 Ph1 inlet setup with the cable throttle etc.
Brake servo is the same as said above, just connects to the back of the inlet!
Yeah, I just took it out for a drive last time and kept adjusting the rear until it 'felt' right under heavy braking - il probably go out and set it up again..
There is a Outlet off the Manifold. Make sure you geta mk1 172 engine
He means the brake bias on the rear beam I think..
In summary - any engine will work, you just need the 172 Ph1 inlet setup with the cable throttle body
On a side note you'l need a 172 Ph1 engine loom and 172 ECU. You then need to get an emulator for the ECU (circa £30) and get the ECU virginised/decoded before fitting it. Once thats done the immobiliser is disabled and will run fine. The last major job really is making a downpipe - but its not too hard of a job.
Paddy_g46
ClioSport Club Member
Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project
Right ok iv got all that now, phase1 engine needed! where do I get an emulator and get it decoded?
Was I right in thinking that I only need a 172 top mount to get the engine mounted in? Other mounts are standard valver?
Then my only issue will be the wiring! :rasp:
Right ok iv got all that now, phase1 engine needed! where do I get an emulator and get it decoded?
Was I right in thinking that I only need a 172 top mount to get the engine mounted in? Other mounts are standard valver?
Then my only issue will be the wiring! :rasp:
Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project
Correct, only need the top mount. Ideally get a 172/R19 front gearbox mount too that goes to the subframe, stiffens the whole lot up more...
Emulator from here: http://www.tek-tronics.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=80
Andrew Cooke on here can decode the ECU for you as far as I know - PM him for details/pricing etc
Wiring isnt really an issue - I wrote a guide for it
Correct, only need the top mount. Ideally get a 172/R19 front gearbox mount too that goes to the subframe, stiffens the whole lot up more...
Emulator from here: http://www.tek-tronics.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=80
Andrew Cooke on here can decode the ECU for you as far as I know - PM him for details/pricing etc
Wiring isnt really an issue - I wrote a guide for it
Trophy Turbo :)
Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project
**** note to Andy, get a grip and paint them dirty hubs LOL no worrys Jord any time
**** note to Andy, get a grip and paint them dirty hubs LOL no worrys Jord any time
clio dCi
Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project
nice
nice
Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project
some questions...
what's the dia of the 172 servo?
Now you've driven it a bit what do you think of the brakes (travel, feel, etc), and any idea how much of that feeling is the master cylinder, and how much the servo?
Do you think it was time well spent?
some questions...
what's the dia of the 172 servo?
Now you've driven it a bit what do you think of the brakes (travel, feel, etc), and any idea how much of that feeling is the master cylinder, and how much the servo?
Do you think it was time well spent?
Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project
I will measure the servo for you tomorrow (forgot when it was out)...
I re-bled the whole thing again the other day and it changed by a lot again. I really like how they are now, instant bite with pretty much no force on the pedal at all (which I think is due to the servo being bigger). Once you are braking there is half the travel than there used to be, I guess a combination of the cylinder and servo (i.e. not having to press the pedal as hard).
If your servo is easily accessible I would 100% do it, I far far far far prefer the feel of this to be honest! Also, the rod inside of the servo has a thread on it which I assume will wind out/in for adjustment. Not that it needs it though really - I have about 1/2" of travel in the pedal if that before they instantly bite.
I will measure the servo for you tomorrow (forgot when it was out)...
I re-bled the whole thing again the other day and it changed by a lot again. I really like how they are now, instant bite with pretty much no force on the pedal at all (which I think is due to the servo being bigger). Once you are braking there is half the travel than there used to be, I guess a combination of the cylinder and servo (i.e. not having to press the pedal as hard).
If your servo is easily accessible I would 100% do it, I far far far far prefer the feel of this to be honest! Also, the rod inside of the servo has a thread on it which I assume will wind out/in for adjustment. Not that it needs it though really - I have about 1/2" of travel in the pedal if that before they instantly bite.
Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project
I might have to consider the laguna master cylinder, as I'm not sure I have space for a larger servo, plus I don't think the lighter car wants brakes that are too light...
I've had a look at my manual and it looks like I have adjusters inside the servo, and on the rod between servo and pedal.
Damn, I knew i should have swapped the master cylinder when I had it in bits
20.6mm piston to 23.8mm should give ~25% less travel for the same fluid movement
I might have to consider the laguna master cylinder, as I'm not sure I have space for a larger servo, plus I don't think the lighter car wants brakes that are too light...
I've had a look at my manual and it looks like I have adjusters inside the servo, and on the rod between servo and pedal.
Damn, I knew i should have swapped the master cylinder when I had it in bits
20.6mm piston to 23.8mm should give ~25% less travel for the same fluid movement
Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project
I should think the servo increased braking power at least as much as the larger cylinder reduced it.
You could go for a 25.4mm dia master cylinder, that should reduce travel a bit more should you feel that way inclined
I should think our cars are about the same weight, with the same brakes.
I should think the servo increased braking power at least as much as the larger cylinder reduced it.
You could go for a 25.4mm dia master cylinder, that should reduce travel a bit more should you feel that way inclined
I should think our cars are about the same weight, with the same brakes.
Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project
Fitted the 172 fuel pump and new fuel filter before, seems to run a bit smoother and do more miles to the fuel - I wonder if the 190k+ miler valver pump actually had any affect on the running, hmm. Will have to see how it goes!
Tracking adjusted slightly and a few other bits tidied up ready for Cadwell in a few days time - hopefully everything will say together this time
Fitted the 172 fuel pump and new fuel filter before, seems to run a bit smoother and do more miles to the fuel - I wonder if the 190k+ miler valver pump actually had any affect on the running, hmm. Will have to see how it goes!
Tracking adjusted slightly and a few other bits tidied up ready for Cadwell in a few days time - hopefully everything will say together this time
JDM Dc2
Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project
extra 10bhp and 10mpg? mint
cant wait for wednesday
extra 10bhp and 10mpg? mint
cant wait for wednesday
TrackCar & F30 330d
Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project
Oh dear, hope its one of those problems where you think its big but actually its a silly little thing.
Fingers crossed
Oh dear, hope its one of those problems where you think its big but actually its a silly little thing.
Fingers crossed
Christopher
ClioSport Club Member
Z4M
Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project
FFS.
FFS.
Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project
doesn't the fork act pretty much on the back of the bearing? I can't see it breaking if that's the case. I can't really remember what the standard stuff looks like as I'm using AP clutch and bearing with a custom carrier.
Was the ratchet mechanism OK?
doesn't the fork act pretty much on the back of the bearing? I can't see it breaking if that's the case. I can't really remember what the standard stuff looks like as I'm using AP clutch and bearing with a custom carrier.
Was the ratchet mechanism OK?
