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172 cat flow tests?



Has anyone done any flow tests on 172 cats, sports, or decats?

Based on recommendations from here I bought a low mileage PH1 twin cat. Out of interest I dropped it onto my flow bench and got a disappointing 130CFM @ 10" H2O (one intake port does better than that), I'd expect a decent 2 1/4" ID decat to be more like 300CFM. I've not removed my 80K PH2 cat to compare, and I'm not sure I could be bothered to swap them based on this result.

Anyone care to comment on these findings, or my expectations. Equally any hard data from the various sports cat options available?

(K-Tec, wanna lend me some pipes to play with? :D )

I don't want to fit a decat, I don't want a sports cat that struggles with emission tests, I want stress free MOTs and flowers to grow in my exhaust.

Andy
 
  clio sport 172
I have a group A exhaust and first it was with a decat, it was loud in the car, power wise nothing special...then i got a ph1 twin barrel cat (it had 140.000 km),
in my opinion:
sound wise outside - maybe few db quieter, especially on idle, inside - here is the difference it's much better, not so loud as with the decat
the car seems to pull better from the start through the whole rev range
i had the problem with the gear linkage touching/hitting the decat pipe in 2 and 4 gear, with cat no problem
no problem with mot, especially as it's known how difficult it is to change the cat on ph1.
have in mind i had an engine rebuild + the car is mapped...so i my opinion - sound and power wise no noticable difference

hope i could help you
 
  Lionel Richie
^its a freak of an engine, mapped by some bloke who use to map F1 engines, some bloke called matt, owns a company called TDF, he's ok i guess ;)
 
  53 Clio's & counting
^its a freak of an engine, mapped by some bloke who use to map F1 engines, some bloke called matt, owns a company called TDF, he's ok i guess ;)

I still cant believe how muxh power it makes, what was it, 160 atw if I remember right?
 

Dan

  172 track thingy
^its a freak of an engine, mapped by some bloke who use to map F1 engines, some bloke called matt, owns a company called TDF, he's ok i guess ;)

Holy s**t I think I may need to take a trip his way once I have recieved the gooedies from you Fred :)
 
To try and put the cat flow into context I dug out my old PH2 172 exhaust and checked that:

2 centre boxes together 180cfm
back box 114cfm

That back box makes the PH1 twin cat look good.

If I can be bothered and the weather is OK I'll pull the PH2 172 cat off the car and check that.

Andy
 
  clio sport 172
so what is the final verdict of the experts (fred, jms...) - is the ph1 twin cat better (has a better flow) than a decat pipe?
is the ph1 twin cat 100 or 200 cell?
 
Just pulled my PH2 cat off and tested that, 187cfm. That really kicks the PH1 twin cat (132cfm) into touch. Question is why? I did wonder if my cat had been gutted, but I can see the honeycomb, do I have a duff PH1, or a freak PH2, or is my result genuine and the PH2 is way better than the PH1 cat?
 
  Clio 197
Just pulled my PH2 cat off and tested that, 187cfm. That really kicks the PH1 twin cat (132cfm) into touch. Question is why? I did wonder if my cat had been gutted, but I can see the honeycomb, do I have a duff PH1, or a freak PH2, or is my result genuine and the PH2 is way better than the PH1 cat?

Did it pass an mot with this cat?
 
  Lionel Richie
so what is the final verdict of the experts (fred, jms...) - is the ph1 twin cat better (has a better flow) than a decat pipe?
is the ph1 twin cat 100 or 200 cell?

Well IMO the phs1 is the best cat to have in terms of design and going off the results i've seen 14.0 second 1/4 miles etc

but Andrew's results contradict my opinion LOL, but then again as we know bench testing and scientific stuff is one thing, how things work on the car can be a different matter
 
I give up, looked inside both cats, and to my untrained eye everything looks normal. I guess I'll need to measure a few more to see if these 2 are normal.
 

Gaz_

ClioSport Club Member
  Extreme mode
iirc a 182 cat is better again? Bust mod the flange (ooo er) and jobs a good un?
 
  Renaultsport Clio 172
The 182 is the best cat, so good it makes no difference to a decat, is metalic and far less restrictive. Either 172 cats are far from being an upgrade. 182's or leave it alone.
 
  clio sport 172
i don't know how it flows with the 182 cat, but today i was a nice day so i made a test with my decat pipe and the ph1 twin cat (1 lambda)
my car is stock (i rebuilded the engine), the only thing i have is a remap and the exhaust is a supersprint gr.a 63,5mm (i got it from a car that had it on for maybe 1.000 km, so practically new)
1. decat - i lost cca 40 min. to change it, idle little rough, not so responsive in lower revs, middle so-so, it pulls but in higher revs...more noise inside, outside maybe 1-2db quieter
2. ph1 twin cat (it has 140.000 km) - idle the same as with the decat, the car pulls from the start better, it kicks right to the 4000rpm, and then pulls hard till the end, noise inside much quieter (till 3500-4000rpm), outside the same.
-one more thing i measured (with gps):
1 gear
- ph1 cat 72
- decat 60
2 gear
- ph1 cat 115
- decat 108

so as fred and danny already said a benchmark test is one thing, and how it performs on a car is a another...maybe it's due an oversized exhaust system (63- 70mm from standard 54mm) so the cat creates the adequate backpressure it needs for a better flow and power output.
 
I'm not sure what you mean by this:

-one more thing i measured (with gps):
1 gear
- ph1 cat 72
- decat 60
2 gear
- ph1 cat 115
- decat 108

My guess is kph in each gear? If so, the only thing that will limit speed in low gears will be the rev limiter, that would suggest you tested the decat 'cold' and the PH1 cat 'hot'?

It's a pity you're not local as I'd like to measure your cat :)

Andy
 
  clio sport 172
the car was on full working temperature in both cases, but the result with the cat were better (in my case), esp. torque wise, than with the decat.
it may be due the remap and exhaust, maybe will fred have something to post about this, i recall he used also this cat on his supersprint exhaust.
 
  172/1.2/E30
Max speed in "lower" gears got nothing to do with engine power. It's only dependent on engine speed and gearbox ratio.
 
I'm still measuring stuff....

All being well I'll have a 182 cat here next week, but in the meantime I found a bit of 2.5" ID tube to play with. My poor flow bench is really struggling to measure this as I only sized it for an inlet port (~135cfm), but still it'll be in the ballpark of correct, the 15" length came out at 380cfm.
 

p@blo

ClioSport Club Member
  Clio/A3
Andrew will you be flowing one of the btb 182 modded cats for the 172? Be interested to see how it fares to the std ph2 setup.
 
Andrew will you be flowing one of the btb 182 modded cats for the 172? Be interested to see how it fares to the std ph2 setup.

no, but only because I don't have one. Same as I don't have a decat, a silenced decat, or a sports cat of any description. I'll measure anything I can get my hands on.
 

p@blo

ClioSport Club Member
  Clio/A3
Where you based, have a decat from the orbi. Just be same as youre id pipe tho would it not? Would offee the btb if if wasnt such a pita to remove on stands :(
 
Where you based, have a decat from the orbi. Just be same as youre id pipe tho would it not? Would offee the btb if if wasnt such a pita to remove on stands :(
Im in OX7. No, decat is unlikely to flow as much as the pipe as it has bends and is longer, plus I'm not sure it's 2.5" ID.

Tell me, I broke a cat-manifold bolt removing my PH2, still not put it back together.
 
  "Navy" N17 TWO
My KTR sport cat passed MOT no problem - mind you it woke up the MOT centre as mine was up 1st thing that morning :eek:
 
This post is going to be full of ifs, buts, caveats, and an apology.

To sum up what I'd found so far:

PH2 oval cat 187cfm
PH1 twin cat 132cfm
2.5" ID pipe 380cfm

all at 10" H2O depression. Something didn't make sense. I did some sums to try and work out the backpressure that each cat would produce, no promises, but this is my best guess:

PH2 oval cat 0.6psi
PH1 twin cat 1.3psi
2.5" ID pipe 0.2psi

none of them much to write home about.

Anyway, a bit of internet research led me to a Magnaflow 59926 200 cell metallic cat. Do a search it comes quite well rated (and currently very cheap on ebay), and with various quoted CFM from impressive to unbelievable. It came in a sexy box with a picture of a Corvette and 'racing legend Mario Andretti' on it. It had to be the dogs danglies. Now to put this in context, this cat has 2.5"ID ends just like the straight pipe, so much bigger diameter than the PH2 cat exit, and doesn't have the curved inlet pipe, just the bare cat. I'd optimistically estimated about 300cfm, so it was a bit disappointing to only get 215... (about 0.5psi pressure drop). At this point I'm ready to hurl the shiney piece of shite right back at the vendor. I then spent a couple of evenings on the net trying to see if I anyone else got the same result. Surprisingly there is very little about flow bench testing of cats, but the nearest I got was a similar result from a 300 cell metallic cat of the same size, the same tester found a 200 cell cat to be more like the 300cfm I expected. More head scratching and looking at larger magnaflow cats and 100 cell cats has followed. I still don't know what to do.

Anyway, the 182 cat turned up in the post today, this was going to sort the men from the boys, after all, it's known to be the mutts nuts. Again, time for another caveat, this wasn't a new cat, but I could shine a light through it and it's not blown or anything. The exit is also quite nasty, with a reverse lip and small pipe. However, it's a 200 cell jobbie so it'll rock. 110CFM (1.8psi) WTF!!!! Lets get this right, the best cat flows the worst on my bench, and the worst cat flows the best?? I must be going nuts...

I kicked around the room for a few minutes trying to make sense of things, the only thing that made any sense was that the I'd somehow stuffed up measuring the PH2 cat. I'd looked in the back of the cat and seen the honeycomb, and dangled a camera down the front and seen it from the other side. Just before putting it back on the flow bench I dangled my cliosport.net torch on a string back down inside the cat to look for light from the back. Hang on, I can see the whole damn torch.... It appears than my cat is just a bit of mesh at the back end and it's innards had disappeared in a previous life. I've put it through 2 MOTs like that (OBD1, not OBD11), but still. How it looked like it had lit up I don't know, I watched it, so maybe it was just coming off cold start? (not temp gauge in my car) - apologies Montana. Funny how in the cold hard light of day you suddenly notice things like how light the cat was, and how tinny it sounded....

I guess I need to test a PH2 with some innards to complete the set.

Anyway, I now really don't know what to do, clearly my car passed the MOT without a cat, I don't want to refit my PH2 as it's already been repaired and has a new crack forming (which is why I got the PH1 twin cat in the first place). I could get a decat and use that (although I feel I ought to use a cat with unleaded fuel), of fit the magnaflow into it, or sort out a 100cell job that should match the decat for flow... too many choices. I think the PH1 will go on for now whilst I think about it.

Apologies to all fro the confusion and long post, but I hope it's entertained :)
 
I lol'd

Got a ph2 cat here if you want to give it a try.

it was a real FFS moment :)

Cheers Danny, I might take you up on that, not sure how I'd get it off you, maybe I'll take a drive out once I've got the Twingo back together?

I'd quite like to try a 182 that's had a bigger exit fitted, standard def blocks things a bit as I got more flow when I removed the lambda bung, but no idea how much better it gets.

Anyway, it's not just cats I measure, got some more cams to do :)
 
  ITB'd MK1
well if you bring a 182 cat over I can weld a 2.5 inch outlet on that too. I'm putting a 182 manifold on my 172, so i'll happily accept your old cat thats cracked so i can cut the front flange off it to make a link pipe with, if it's going spare
 
The 182 cat isn't mine, I just borrowed it to play with. I'm not sure whether the owner would want it modified.

I've not decided yet what to do with the PH2 cat, there is still a possibility of using it to make a 'Duckhams' cat, or swap the cat for a high flow jobbie. If I decide against doing either of those you're welcome to it. Just depends upon when you'd need the flange as it'll probably be a few weeks before I get my sheet together.
 
  ITB'd MK1
what on earth happened to Duckhams oils? (lol, thread derail....)

tbh i can probably find a flange, so dont worry, was just an off the cuff idea
 


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