172 cup manifold mods

[timdog]

My opinion is it needs to be removed as swirl should be created later on by the entrance to the chamber. The last thing you want in a port is a dead area.
There is a lot on mixed opinions on the subject of creating turbulence and port finishes. One of the most radical yet is this one http://somender-singh.com/component/option,com_frontpage/Itemid,1/#photo

 

[CrazyK]

just a note of caution

we have tested a couple of these manifolds before we map them with the afr meter, and after the work was done the AFR never went below 14.5 (on full load)

so its running lean and certainly not enough to get the best power which is at 12.9 on the clio.

there are a few people that have run this without fueling adjustment with no problem (the std ecu had good knock control on it)



just to make you aware thats all.

So basically the same as everything else on this engine once you do anything, get a management and remap??

 

[David_Snaresbrook]

This is the sort of thing i would love to do myself, but i'd no doubt end up f**king it right up, lol.

Think i might go down to my local tuning guys and see how much they would charge to do this, then map the car.

 

[skinner]

Are all the steps in the manifold steps up in size as std, not as per the excellent full colour sketch?

Not wanting to take the thread too off topic, but the grooves in that link above look like a gimmick - any credible test data around?

 

[BenR]

Any flow specialist worth his beans will tell you that any tubulance in the actual port is just using energy and slowing flow, introducing a chaos factor as that area will react very differently at differing rpm and velocities.

All effective swirl is created with port entry angle, port configuration and valve seat setup.

And when you come to the age old argument of finish, i find it particuarly poinltess on modern engines as the injectors basically sit 3" from the back of the valve head. And since fuel is injected before the valve is even remotely opened it wont matter what your surface is like as it pools behind the valve. On old cars where the injectors were miles up the inlet tract or a carb was used, it was important to keep suspension through all the bends and pressure drops you encounter. It all depends where the point of fuel is introduced. On bodies you need to keep suspension as the injectors are upstream by a decent amount, and moreso on racing vehicles which have outboard injectors.

As for that rifling thing, IMO it kills any nuance of boundary layer and generates a centrifugal force to spin out fuel, along with the rifling which adds 'drains' if you will to hold fuel and the sharp edges will actively remove any nice flow pattern you create.

To me though, its a matter of flow quality over quantity.

 

[Saner]

As i'm hoping to get my Inlet Manifold done yet can't currently afford the piggy back and setup, would resetting the ecu using a clip machine help?

 

[CrazyK]

Any flow specialist worth his beans will tell you that any tubulance in the actual port is just using energy and slowing flow, introducing a chaos factor as that area will react very differently at differing rpm and velocities.

All effective swirl is created with port entry angle, port configuration and valve seat setup.

As for that rifling thing, IMO it kills any nuance of boundary layer and generates a centrifugal force to spin out fuel, along with the rifling which adds 'drains' if you will to hold fuel and the sharp edges will actively remove any nice flow pattern you create.

To me though, its a matter of flow quality over quantity.

I completley agree on the quality over quantity, after all its no use if your getting loads of air in but the fuel gets caught up and cant mix properly

The rifling thing is just what I found out from the flow specialist who worked on my engine and several inlets and finishes were tried and tested as he is starting to put together various tuning options for his customers. I think its important to state that different finishes offer varying results depending on the type of inlet and fuel injection technique. This Inlet on my Lotus is relatively short and the bend the inlet is very shallow, also the actual diameter of the ports is very large and the engine is on carbs rather than injection. Because the fuel and air travel through the inlet together rather than the fuel being added later and pooling as you described earlier, it led to a better air/fuel mix and as a result a cleaner burn. The rifling seems to work on this engine but may not have any effect on other types of inlet/injection.

 

[-Make-]

intresting conversation..

why renault have leave inlet manifold like that (std)?
..there have to be some reason.

would nice to see whan kind of finish new rs clio's inlet manifold have!


in my case.. now i have totally standard 172 (-03). this spring i will add jr-panelfilter.
someday sport-cat and better exhaust.
if i mod my inlet manifold -> machine gently chamfer to up and down.. do i gain improvements (before and after cat&exhaust)?

 

[Phill1978]

just to confirm is it GDI or Angelworks who do this ???

where are each based and is it still £150

 

[Rhys182]

why renault have leave inlet manifold like that (std)?
..there have to be some reason.

Its all down to cost my friend. Car manufacturers aren't building race engines so they'll cut costs wherever they can.

 

[martynh]

just to confirm is it GDI or Angelworks who do this ???

where are each based and is it still £150

I believe the machine work is done by Angelworks and can be fitted by GDI, thought is was £180 not £150.

 

[CrazyK]

I believe the machine work is done by Angelworks and can be fitted by GDI, thought is was £180 not £150.

Still a good price tho!

 

[caymanr26]

would you do a group buy on these again Ben - theres loads of people interested and and the best way of getting us to go ahead and spend the cash is if you offer us some money off! - So hows about it???? Anyone up for it??

 

[cK]

Had mine done by Andy @ GDI as Ben was on holiday.

 

[timdog]

intresting conversation..

why renault have leave inlet manifold like that (std)?
..there have to be some reason.

would nice to see whan kind of finish new rs clio's inlet manifold have!


in my case.. now i have totally standard 172 (-03). this spring i will add jr-panelfilter.
someday sport-cat and better exhaust.
if i mod my inlet manifold -> machine gently chamfer to up and down.. do i gain improvements (before and after cat&exhaust)?

As stated below, its a time thing which means cost. All manufacturers leave engines like this. Very rarely they hand finish them but you pay for that when you buy the vehicle.
Its not just the inlet manifolds that have discrepancies like this, you will find it throughout the car and engine if you strip it down. Cam timing can vary massivley for example. I've seen heads from the factory with vastly different combustion chamber volumes. This is why some are fast and some are not. I believe the expression is 'a friday afternoon car'

 

[George k]

BenR - looking at the inlet manifold, the runners are quite long - on cars with switchable length systems, they normally tend to switch to a short tract for top end power - my VR6 Schrick was at 4,000 (we made our own variable switching system and checked it on a r-road as optimum) and I think the MX5 is at 5,200 - do you think this is a limiting factor for the F4R - obviously for general road use it should help with a nice solid torque curve.

 

[BenR]

I completley agree on the quality over quantity, after all its no use if your getting loads of air in but the fuel gets caught up and cant mix properly

The rifling thing is just what I found out from the flow specialist who worked on my engine and several inlets and finishes were tried and tested as he is starting to put together various tuning options for his customers. I think its important to state that different finishes offer varying results depending on the type of inlet and fuel injection technique. This Inlet on my Lotus is relatively short and the bend the inlet is very shallow, also the actual diameter of the ports is very large and the engine is on carbs rather than injection. Because the fuel and air travel through the inlet together rather than the fuel being added later and pooling as you described earlier, it led to a better air/fuel mix and as a result a cleaner burn. The rifling seems to work on this engine but may not have any effect on other types of inlet/injection.

I'll reserve my opinons, but there are major benefits to creating the correct boundary layer thickness, which rifling would kill in terms of flow and suspension.

 

[BenR]

just to confirm is it GDI or Angelworks who do this ???

where are each based and is it still £150

I, Angelworks, did the development and carry out the modification.

You can purchase from me or GDI.

Price for the manifold work is £150, fitting is extra as i do not have much time at the moment with the amount on to do fitting, but its a simple job and almost anybody or any garage can do it.

 

[BenR]

would you do a group buy on these again Ben - theres loads of people interested and and the best way of getting us to go ahead and spend the cash is if you offer us some money off! - So hows about it???? Anyone up for it??

Sorry, i've run it already and cant offer the discounted price all the time.

I feel that it is cheap enough as is for the amount of time i spend on the manifold, any cheaper and it wont be worth my while.

 

[BenR]

BenR - looking at the inlet manifold, the runners are quite long - on cars with switchable length systems, they normally tend to switch to a short tract for top end power - my VR6 Schrick was at 4,000 (we made our own variable switching system and checked it on a r-road as optimum) and I think the MX5 is at 5,200 - do you think this is a limiting factor for the F4R - obviously for general road use it should help with a nice solid torque curve.

Correct, it is prohibitive, but we cant expect much from a £11K hatch.

I am designing a new manifold which will have significantly shorter lengths for higher peak rpm performance. But i will concentrate my effects on cancelling reflective pulses withing the plenham. Only refractive waves from the bellmouth will be used to tune.

 

[caymanr26]

how much do GDI charge to fit Ben or Andy?

 

[Andy GDI]

£50 ish....

 

[caymanr26]

same price as Hill Power then - is there any difference in the actual work that is done??

 

[Andy GDI]

i have never seen nicks one....

i know ben does quite alot to the inlet manifold.... more than just port matching...

best let ben answer...

 

[EVOgone]

The inlet to plenum match OK understand this but...

How do you ensure that the inlet ports are matched to the head ports if its an exchange. Surely some head port positions are different..and if they are dowled then unless you have the head off its never going to be a perfect match. There must be a mismatch.

 

[BenR]

That is why i am anal about lining them up when i fit them.

However, with experience you know what the correct sizing should be. The actual 'match' shouldnt be perfect, i design my manifols to have a step down of 20 thou. This allows for the movement of half a mill on the manifolds fitting to the head aswell as benefits in terms of flow reversal at low rpm with the overlap periods the uprated cams run. The gaskets are very accurate and so are the fitting of the manifolds to the bolts so there isnt too much to worry about with fitting.

 

[EVOgone]

That is why i am anal about lining them up when i fit them.

However, with experience you know what the correct sizing should be. The actual 'match' shouldnt be perfect, i design my manifols to have a step down of 20 thou. This allows for the movement of half a mill on the manifolds fitting to the head aswell as benefits in terms of flow reversal at low rpm with the overlap periods the uprated cams run. The gaskets are very accurate and so are the fitting of the manifolds to the bolts so there isnt too much to worry about with fitting.

Im sure you can replicate the profile with the gasket, do you need the old gasket (for refecence) so to confirm the profiles. If not surely you can nor gaurentee the profiles matching up, then must be some unwanted mismatch compared to doing it when the heads of the the inlet is bolted to it.

 

[BenR]

pardon!?

Did i not explain why they line up in the previous post?

 

[EVOgone]

pardon!?

Did i not explain why they line up in the previous post?

Surely its slightly mis matched to the left or to the right or up or down ? Can you match the profile so there is a constant lip all the way round equally ?

Is that better explained.. if you say 20thou (you must be old) is that the max positonally it can be out ?

 

[BenR]

The heads arent exactly the same size as the gasket, but they are centralised. The gaskets are coated steel, so stamed from a die and very accurate, they do not wobble around like paper ones. The ports are also CNC'd from the factory so are in the same position and the same size at entry every time.

I can match the profile every time yes.

Thou, i'm not old, i just hate metric lol.

 

[EVOgone]

The heads arent exactly the same size as the gasket, but they are centralised. The gaskets are coated steel, so stamed from a die and very accurate, they do not wobble around like paper ones. The ports are also CNC'd from the factory so are in the same position and the same size at entry every time.

I can match the profile every time yes.

Thou, i'm not old, i just hate metric lol.

Cheers, understood.

When can i have one...?

 

[BenR]

Whenever you order one lol.

 

[-Make-]

in my case.. now i have totally standard 172 (-03). this spring i will add jr-panelfilter.
someday sport-cat and better exhaust.
if i mod my inlet manifold -> machine gently chamfer to up and down.. do i gain improvements (before and after cat&exhaust)?

can someone answer this?

 

[Andy GDI]

can someone answer this?

the inlet will make improvments.... simple...

as long as its done properally