172 Engine Problem After Gearbox Change

[metrohooligan]

Ok, hey all it's a shame my first real post is coming from a bad experience and this this could be a long story, so I'll try and condense it as much as possible.

I bought a 172 approx 2 months ago pretty cheap as it was due a belt and also the clutch was slipping. Gearbox would sometimes grind into third but I put this down to the clutch being on it's last legs. So after driving it for a month and having no problems, decided it was worth biting the bullet and having all the belts done and at the same time the clutch.

So after best part of £800 spent getting the car in top order (all genuine Renault parts), and after approx 300 miles (2/3 weeks) of having the belts done, I'm driving a bit spirited on the way back from an evening out with the missus and do a pretty fast change from 2nd to 3rd (the same kind as when the old clutch was in) - really bad crunch and it wouldn't go into gear. Thought it was strange, so tried again, it went into gear and and as soon as I lifted the clutch it went bang and the gearbox s**t itself. I didn't know what was going on and panicked and slowed right down. Got my senses back and slowly tested to see if I had any other gears. I managed to ease it into 4th and it sounded absolutely horrible - literally like someone had thrown a bag of nuts and bolts into the box. Tried for 5th, no drive when putting it in, 3rd just wasn't there at all. I managed to get it home the 30 odd miles using 4th and second gear with some real funny looks when people went past :smiley:

Anyway, I source a box and had it booked in with someone recommended to me by a friend. Box change went fine, text message saying it drives lovely and it's ready to pick up when I want. Then a text message simply saying "Ring me". I phone the guy up and receive; "I've got some bad news for you, your cambelts gone". This is after 1 or 2 miles of the box being changed, and also hear that he was "ragging it" up and down the road (I knew someone at the BP garage it was left). Now I'm stuck in a really awkward place. The guy wants his money for fitting the box, whilst giving me back a fuxed car that was simply left at a local BP garage and saying I should take it up with the people who fitted my belt. Basically, he's taking no responsibility of it at all. This was last Thursday, so I was left with the headache of sorting it out and being so much out of pocket and wtf am I going to do, when I should have been enjoying a Friday day and night away with the missus, and then my mothers birthday on the Saturday night.

So after leaving it there Friday and Saturday as I was unable to get over there and collect it, I get it home the Sunday morning and have a little look to try and diagnose what's happened with the guy who fitted the belt. After a bit of looking around, the guy who done the belt can only see a mark on the crank pulley where the engine has been dropped to change the box, if this had anything to do with it we don't know, but it wasn't there before. It couldn't really have gone any worse, both belts have stayed intact. The aux belt has come off at speed, and jammed in the cambelt cover, which in turn has strangled it and caused it to skip a couple of teeth. One cam is at 1 o'clock, and the other one is at say half 2. It's also dumped all it's water from somewhere (I'm guessing water pump when the belt has strangled everything).

Basically the guy who changed the box can't see how it was anything he did, and the person who did the belt is 100% he did everything right and it's a bit of a coincidence I drive it 300 miles without a problem, yet the person who has changed the box get's 2 miles down the road and it all goes to poop. It's currently sat in the guy's garage who did the belt, and although he's a friend, I can't expect him to look at it too far and diagnose it for free when he's a one man band and he's got other jobs booked in.

I really don't know what way to go with this, who should be taking responsibility for this?
Sorry for the wall of text, and this is the condensed version :smiley:

 

[Budgie]

Ouch.

This is the risk of getting work done from friends really.

Where in the country are you based?

Long story short, i'd be finding someone on here who knows these cars well and who fancies doing you a favour while earning a couple of pennies of beer money. Second hand engine. Refit box and new clutch, put both back in together.

 

[metrohooligan]

Forgot to add, the guy who fitted the box does these all the time and has never had a problem (so he says). Think he specialises in French cars. The mate who did the belt said he would stand on and sort it out if there was any doubt at all that it was his negligence.

I've kept calm so far and waiting to see what transpires, but there is a threshold, and I'm not going to sit on the fence indefinitely. Someone's throat is going to get jumped down lol.

I'm based near Bedford. I'm not going to mention any names as I'm not the kind to tarnish people's reputations unless there's due need.

 

[Dan@SJM]

Was the full aux kit changed or just the aux belt?

 

[metrohooligan]

Was the full aux kit changed or just the aux belt?

Been told it was just the belt that was changed as the tensioner looked in good condition.

 

[Dan@SJM]

Then it's the guy who did the belt fault. You must ALWAYS change the aux kit.

 

[metrohooligan]

Understand what you're saying, but for me to drive 300 miles fine and then fail 5 or 10 minutes after someone else has moved the engine? Coincidence?

What's not to say a pulley has been nudged while the engine is dropped and he's wrestling the box out? It may not fly off instantly, but within 10 minutes of it being thrashed up and down the road it's worked itself off slowly and then strangled itself. They way the belt had cut through the cambelt casing shows it hasn't simply jumped off and jammed instantly, but over the course of a couple of miles.

Long and short of it, the way I see it I have driven a good car in there with a gearbox problem and get basically a heap of scrap left to me to deal with. Would you accept that sort of behaviour if you took it to a garage?

 

[H182]

Its a tricky one. As yes he could have dislodged / damaged something when fitting the box, or alternatively it just failed of its own accord. Best thing to do IMO would be to get it to someone independent who can identify the cause, then take it from there with whoever is found to be at fault.

As Dan says though, the tensioner should be changed with the aux belt. If that's the reason its failed its definitely the guy who's changed that at fault.

 

[metrohooligan]

How can you tell if the tensioner has failed? Should I be looking for play in it or lack of force?

 

[Mike@Rentech]

Full aux kit must be done to do a proper job, tensioner was probably siezed as the usually are, so belt would have been loose , hence coming off.
I really can't see how removing and refitting box would affect belts, nothing needs to be touched that side of the engine.
Tough one to call.

 

[Dan@SJM]

The strain of the new belt will happily cause a tensioner to fail, but not immediately in most cases. As Renault parts were fitted, pay the £80 fee for Renault to strip and diagnose it. I'm willing to bet they'll say the exact same Thing.

But as mike has said, you don't touch anything on the belt side of the engine when doing a gearbox. Even if you're crude about it and let the engine rest on the pulley, it still wouldn't cause the belt to jump off. Same theory applies that you're applying though, why would it last 10 minutes of driving if it was something he did?

 

[metrohooligan]

Value your input as experienced Renault bods. Taken on board what you guys have said and will let the two parties sort it out amongst themselves. Hopefully something can be sorted out between them. Whether that means one person taking sole responsibility or sharing the blame.

Both parties have the opportunity to state their case, and apparently they're meeting today to try and diagnose the root of the problem.

I've showed this thread to the guy who did the belt, and no doubt the person who has changed the box (being a clio enthusiast) has also seen this.

 

[metrohooligan]

OK time to update this thread with the cause of the belt fail. My suspicions were correct and it was not the tensioner to cause the fail.

After taking the engine out it's plainly obvious to see a bolt that has been left on the top of the engine has fallen between the crank pulley and water pump. This instantly seized the engine, causing the belt to skip teeth, taking a chunk out of the crank pulley and a big dent in the water pump pulley with thread markings. This in turn threw the aux belt off, and even though it has pushed off, it hasn't worn all the way through the cambelt casing, partially yes, but not all the way.

There were no missing bolts from the engine.

This is why the engine failed. So obviously the guy who changed the box, left a bolt on the top, which fell off 2 miles down the road.

I've had to source myself another engine and put ANOTHER set of belts on, this time with a new tensioner. :smile:

Would everyone now be in agreement that the responsible party is in fact the garage who changed my box after seeing these pictures?

Would also like to add the state that the gearbox change was done. The positive lead on the starter was over tightened, which cracked all the plastic. This was bodged together with a self tapping screw, which crumbled to pieces when it was removed. Also 2 of the gearbox bolts were stripped, packed out with washers and held in by a couple of cross threaded threads. These are the obvious things that have stuck out so far

 

[Budgie]

Yep, that'll do it.

Gearbox man better lube up.

 

[metrohooligan]

I'd very much appreciate what you think would be a fair resolution for this.

So Far I've had to recover my own car left at a BP forecourt for over 3 days, pay someone to strip down and diagnose what has happened, pay for another engine and gearbox (as quite frankly I wanted to throw the other guys box through his teeth) pay for a new set of belts/waterpump/tensioner and also pay to have the new engine and box fitted.

The gearbox guy had plenty of chances to diagnose what happened himself, but over a week phonecalls/texts from myself and my friend were ignored. I even offered him the chance to split the bill three ways so nobody would take fault, but again he didn't turn up to go over what caused the belt to jump. He would supply an engine, I would supply new belts and parts, and my friend would fit it, that way everyone was sharing blame. Now finding out what has happened and it's solely him to blame do I present him with the total bill?

 

[bloke]

After taking the engine out it's plainly obvious to see a bolt that has been left on the top of the engine has fallen between the crank pulley and water pump.

can you prove it was a bolt left on the engine? who's to say it wasn't flicked up from the road?

 

[metrohooligan]

Would you really ask that if it was your car you'd left with someone?

Some input from traders as to how they would treat customers if this happened whilst in their possession would be very much appreciated.

 

[Budgie]

can you prove it was a bolt left on the engine? who's to say it wasn't flicked up from the road?

That's playing devils advocate, sure, but the chances of that are so unlikely in comparison to it being a direct result of the work recently done.

 

[bloke]

Would you really ask that if it was your car you'd left with someone?

Some input from traders as to how they would treat customers if this happened whilst in their possession would be very much appreciated.

i am a garage, just not on here as a trader. things can break at any time though and unfortunately there is no real way you can prove who, if anyone, left a bolt on the engine.

That's playing devils advocate, sure, but the chances of that are so unlikely in comparison to it being a direct result of the work recently done.

unlikely but not impossible though.

 

[H182]

I guess all you can try (IMO) is to get the person who diagnosed it to write up a proper report (assuming he is a garage), then take the gearbox guy through the small claims court. It's going to be a tough one though.

Why does it need another new gearbox out of interest?

 

[Budgie]

Yeah, agree that it's impossible to prove 100%, but i'd bet my left tezza that it's a direct result.

That said, i have already lost that a few years ago in a bet, so if i have kids, they're half not mine. lol.

 

[Dan@SJM]

It looks to be quite a small bolt?

 

[Chris_Beer]

This must be costing you a bomb!

What would be interesting is if it was an aux belt tensioner bolt lol...

Good luck with this, sounds like a nightmare to sort out, I had the same with an Audi S3 225 I got from a garage who fobed me off badly some years ago... I ended up selling it to try and recover costs from the engine failure

 

[metrohooligan]

It looks to be quite a small bolt?

If you look at the water pump pulley you can vaguely see the thread marks coming away from the head of the bolt, guessing it was just a standard 10 or 13mm bolt?

This must be costing you a bomb!

What would be interesting is if it was an aux belt tensioner bolt lol...

Good luck with this, sounds like a nightmare to sort out, I had the same with an Audi S3 225 I got from a garage who fobed me off badly some years ago... I ended up selling it to try and recover costs from the engine failure 😧

It is an absolute nightmare, which is why I'm interested to hear what other traders would say if this happened to them so shortly after working on someones car and there was a high chance it was down to them. And how they would have treated the customer after the event...

 

[Dan@SJM]

Only reason i question it, there's no m8/m6 bolts on the gearbox that you remove to do it.

 

[Budgie]

Only reason i question it, there's no m8/m6 bolts on the gearbox that you remove to do it.

Depends if you've taken the bumper/headlights off. Or inlet.

Both entirely possible if you've not done one before and want better access/views.

 

[Dan@SJM]

True.

 

[metrohooligan]

It's nothing that small, looks to be around 10mm or 13mm, something along those lines.

 

[Dan@SJM]

It's nothing that small, looks to be around 10mm or 13mm, something along those lines.

10mm head is m6, 13mm head is m8.