172 engine tuning

[timdog]

I'm thinking about tuning the engine on my 172 cup and wondered if any of you have any real experience with modifying these motors.
If i go ahead, the intake, exhaust and ecu will be totally changed. The engine will be stripped and built properly as well.
What i'm looking for is any recommendations on quality of the stock internals.

How good are the pistons, rods and crank?
What sort of revs can they take?
How about the valvetrain, are the collets and retainers any good for extended revs?
Valves too?
What can the gearbox withstand and if its not much are there better internals available?
Are there any proper exhaust manifolds on the market?

I'm also hunting around for a decent ecu too. Ideally i need something that has some sort of inbuilt wideband lambda logging capability as well as sequential injection and ignition. My experience of ecu's only extends to bikes and motec and neither fits in with my needs or budget for this car.

All feedback gratefully received, but please don't advise sticking on K&N filters/de-cats etc because i'm looking at building a race engine here.

Ps. here is a photo of the stock cnc'd inlet ports for all those that have not seen them

 

[goldevil]

Hi there. I cannot answer you on the ECU issue. You need to talk to an ECU specialist on that one.

The induction, exhaust and ECU are sure things so let us talk about the rest. I assume that you will also get the headers polished or replace them with higher flow units. With all these mods, you will still be under 200HP, but you will have significant performance gains due to the clio's light weight.

How much power do you think you will make?

I highly suggest installing either a sports or a racing clutch because the stock clutch will wear quickly with increased power/torque.

The stock transmission is otherwise good for up to 160lb.ft of torque and 190HP... I don't know of anyone that had trouble with the transmission while tuning within these limits. The only weak link here is the clutch as I said above.

As for pistons and con rods, retainers and other moving parts, you should be OK under 190HP and under 7500RPM. The 172 engine is actually pretty tough considering its compact size and relatively light weight.

What you should invest into (assuming you will not exceed 190HP) is protection. For example, use high quality synthetic oils for engine and transmission. An uprated radiator fan is a very smart investment too. An uprated radiator is even better. also, look for heavy duty bushes and bearings, since these are likely to wear faster with increased power output.

Additionally, a higher flow fuel pump should compliment your other mods quite nicely, insuring that your engine never gets thirsty.

Often forgotten are the spark plugs. Pay for good ones. They are worth it.

Now, if you are planning to go full out (racing cams or turbo for example, 200HP+), you should rebuild the engine from the ground up with increased duty components. And don't forget the cooling and lubrication!

If you have specific questions please ask.

Cheers

 

[timdog]

I'm hoping for a lot over 190bhp. Individual throttle bodies and a proper exhaust manifold - hence the need for different ecu. Plus i'll be blueprinting the entire engine and gasflowing the head. I see no reason to not easily exceed 230bhp at the crank with stock parts as i know 300bhp from a 2-litre from other manufacturers is done with proper internals. Just wondering if anyone that has tuned an f4r has seen failures above certain levels.
I'm not looking to spend any serious money on it. Its been my commute for the last 2 years and am only interesting in tuning because i can and have a little bit of time.
Oh and almost forgot, thanks for the prompt reply

 

[seacombe2379]

with tuning in respect i currently have a clio 182 with pipercross viper indution kit with a full stainless exhaust system from manifold back with decat running at 204bhp @ 6725rpm and 207 nm at 5250rpm the 182 manifold releases so much power on the cup because it is a 4:2:1 it has a higher flow rate

 

[goldevil]

Individual throttle bodies... Nice stuff. Yeah you could make over 200HP that way but you will need to blueprint the engine as you have said.

As far as I know, the biggest jump in power will come from racing cams. I could pretty much assure you that the engine will handle most other mods without trouble, but the racing cams might need some backup work.

And, 300HP from a 2L engine, I am aware of that being made with the help of Nitrous or turbocharging... but with naturally aspirated engines? The only naturally aspirated road engines I have seen being tuned to 150HP/L were Honda and Mazda engines (besides rotaries). People like Spoon or Jun can crank 220-240HP from a 1.6L Honda engine with very little trouble. And I know someone that has tuned a 1.8L Mazda V6 engine (In the MX3 which, as far as I know, was not sold in UK) to 310HP - the engine was entirely rebuilt with hardcore components and revved past 10,000RPM. I am just not so confident that a Renault engine will stand up to such abuse.

Where do you plan to get the throttle bodies from? And what about the ECU?

 

[seacombe2379]

ktr do a throttle bodie set up but it is a bit too much but it does come with ecu and all the fittings

 

[Gary G]

I'm running Viper IK, ProSpeed 2.25 exhaust with de-cat, cams, SMT6 piggyback ECU and AngelWorks Stage1 Inlet manifold....approximately 197bhp. Brakes have been upgraded slightly but still running stock clutch and internals; which is fine. I think the injectors max out at 210bhp> so you will need to replace these when considering ITB's. Also, Omex will be required if you are looking to go down that route.

Two people you need to speak to are Andy GDI (http://www.greydevilindustries.com) and BenR (http://www.angel-works.co.uk) Ben specialises in head and manifold work and has done many on here...he also has a very nice billet cam profile that features on a few 200bhp+ cars.

 

[Neil G]

Some items worth looking into

Lightened flywheel
Knifedge/modified crank

Should help engine rev better with ecu/breathing modifications

 

[MarkM]

with tuning in respect i currently have a clio 182 with pipercross viper indution kit with a full stainless exhaust system from manifold back with decat running at 204bhp @ 6725rpm and 207 nm at 5250rpm the 182 manifold releases so much power on the cup because it is a 4:2:1 it has a higher flow rate

hmmm^^^ seems like rather alot for those mods.

Check out this thread for some modified cars with power figures graphs etc.
http://www.cliosport.net/forum/showthread.php?t=104764

Throttle bodied cars are running around 220bhp to 225bhp (with 182 exhaust manifolds).

Yozzas car has the most work done to it including balanced bottom end lightened flywheel etc.

What sort of rpm are you looking at going to?

The OMEX standalone ECU is used as an affordable solution, alot cheaper then a Motec anyway.

As Gary mentioned AWT is a good place to source your cams. BenR will also be developing a new inlet manifold soon which maybe worth a look instead of useing throttle bodies.

 

[haitch]

info seems a bit sketchy in the early posts eh, if you want a racing engine its going to cost, depends on your description of one. best advice above^ contact Andy & Ben...

 

[haitch]

Seacombe whats your 'torque figure', are you running just the stock ecu? your pushing the injectors at a proper 200hp, and you would run very lean i think. im sure the tech's will explain it better.

 

[MarkM]

Seacombe whats your 'torque figure', are you running just the stock ecu? your pushing the injectors at a proper 200hp, and you would run very lean i think. im sure the tech's will explain it better.

Mine runs standard injectors at 205bhp but I think that is something to do with the OMEX (I dont know why Andy will explain).

At the end of the day you need cams and a remap to go over 195bhp on a 182, from what I have seen, let alone 205bhp.

IMO Seacombe would be lucky to see 185bhp with those mods.

 

[Phill1978]

would a turbo be a better option ? 270hp and 260lbft rapido

 

[Gary G]

turbo's suck...well blow (you know what i mean )

 

[haitch]

ya Mark i agree the omex has better mapping, the gdi cars on here all have smt6 or omex (yourself, Gary, Ross etc) to get the best results, can you get 205 on a standard ecu?

 

[haitch]

you certainly dont get that power for £500ish (full exhaust & viper).

 

[theduck]

...1.8L Mazda V6 engine (In the MX3 which, as far as I know, was not sold in UK) to 310HP - the engine was entirely rebuilt with hardcore components and revved past 10,000RPM...QUOTE]

it was sold in the UK, i almost bought a full UK spec version when i bought my clio, unfortunately the insurance was crippling so couldnt go ahead with it, beautifull car and would love one in the future.

 

[BenR]

There is a wealth of information and knowledge on the F4R and its varients. If there is anything specific you want to know then just PM me.

From the factory, assembly isnt what you'd compare to some K20A or B18c's....the quality of manufacture, design just isnt there. Geometry wise the short motor isnt anything special either, renualt is just building on the base blocks of all its 2ltr designs. A well built std engine will net you over 190bhp using std components and not revving any higher than 7000rpm.

Quality of internals, average.
In stock trim it will take 8000rpm for short periods of time, but you wont want to live there as in std form the engine is horribly balanced.

The crank is good, strong, heavy..it'll live with 8500-9000rpm so long as it is modified correctly, not lightned too much, and as we all know, supporting build quaity and components are used......much the same as any engine.

Rods are good/average. They will live longer at higher rpm with a lighter piston and arp bolts, but i wouldnt bother peening them as they tend to bend (especially with most people not carrying any certification especially not the reccomended AMS-S-13165 standard) and they arent physically made too badly either. And for the effort you'll go through, might aswell buy a steel rod and be done with it.

Pistons, not great. Zero design effort, no utilisation of quench....but you'll be able to use them upto about 220-230bhp if you know what your doing.

Valve train. The roller path radius design is efficient and allows some rather aggressive cam designs so you dont have to go mental with duration. In stock trim on stock cams, you can hit 8k again, any higher and you have to move over to the kit car solid lifter design. One thing nobody takes into account is the harmonics involved with a 5 teir design. My cams have taken this into account.

The valves themselves arent overly strong with a thin stem, wrong cam design and any signs of float/bounce will lead to fatigue failue at the neck. Collet retainer design is fine, not alot of area, but fine....pretty light too, but we can always do better.

Gearbox is crap, period. It'll take some decent power if you dont rush changes and dont use it for standing starts.

No 'proper' manifolds as they are always custom made to suit each application. If your wanting a decent manifold then you will need to establish your finished engine specification before you do.

ECU's, millions. But if you want some proper processing power and plug/play compatability then be prepared to pay for it. Clubman ECU's are precisely that.

The head is ok, its got some good valve area, but the ports arent great when compared to 'good' stuff. Seats are heavily shrouded and it takes someone who knows what they are doing to really release the flow as just grinding the ports and leaving stock seats will only net you about 3-4% from the average porter. The chamber is good, and bad. Its got lots of quench, but lots of shrouding and takes some decent modification, and after that you are left with a very low CR, which takes lots of skimming to bring it up and a proper matching piston. To made great use of it you really need a great piston and superb crown (of which there are none on the market.....yet ) otherwise they are all just glorified std pistons, or whatever 16v forging that particular company has to fit.

Inlet manifold is not great, i found great power from an extensive year and a half of research, included a cut and welded manifold.

If your looking to push it, you will be able to hit 300, but only things left that will be stock will be the bare block and head castings. A realistic output will be 250-260 for a good 10-14k build.

 

[BenR]

oh, and early heads are better than latter. Latter ones are based on a different casting with mucho smaller exhaust ports with no cnc'ing that flow about 20cfm less.

CNC programs differ for batches of heads, so they tend to flow a little different between batches, and some have worse shift in some areas so they dont leave 'meat' in the areas you want. Kinda defies the point of having repteatability with cnc'd ports.

 

[BenR]

oh, and dont forget your K&N and decat.

 

[MarkM]

Ben when is your website going to be ready?

It will be nice to read about all the services you are able to provide

Cant wait to see the new bits your developing. Are you still doing a 182 exhaust?

 

[rmccardal]

If you read Bens post you owe him £250 for the tips

I hope the reseller boys are listening. You know naaaathing.

 

[rmccardal]

I am going to put my car on his head when he gets back ... and its not coming off till there is a new exhaust on it.

Ben when is your website going to be ready?

It will be nice to read about all the services you are able to provide

Cant wait to see the new bits your developing. Are you still doing a 182 exhaust?

 

[BenR]

Just for future information, i work very very slowly when dead ross.

Mark, website is so hard to write content for without going off on a rant like i normally do, structure and not putting people to sleep is key, but so is providing information.

Maybe i should get another website........ www.youknowwhatreallygrindsmygears.com

 

[rmccardal]

Noted

Just for future information, i work very very slowly when dead ross.

 

[Gary G]

said it before.....Genius!

 

[timdog]

oh, and dont forget your K&N and decat.

Bet you were chuckling to yourself at that one

Cheers for the comments guys, all good to hear.

Its not definate that i will build the motor yet, just gaining some info first. I want to see how cheaply i can build it first as there isn't much money to go into the project. I'd love to use all the right bits and build a 300bhp motor but that will not happen, it must use mostly oem parts as i think that power would be wasted on the chassis. I would consider new pistons and obviously cams and valvetrain but again i need to keep cost down.

Turbo is a definate no no.

Throttle bodies would be bike based. I have plenty kicking around.

ECU is the next hurdle. I use motec a bit at the moment on some customer engines but can't justify it on my own vehicle unless i race it which i'm not going to do. I do need the lambda logging, that is a must. If the internals were all up to it i'd consider an motec but i could ideally do with an m800 for development at work which would mean it could not stay on car and i'm not buying 2 of them for myself.

BenR, i'll drop you a pm as i'd like to see some flow figures and port velocities for a stock head if possible. I've got a copy of the dialogys software and that contains all the other specs. I should be able to start chucking some of the data into the engine modelling software then and start playing with induction and exhaust specs to get an idea of the potential. What CR are the uk cars?

 

[BenR]

11-11.2

no worries

 

[Andy GDI]

M800's are excellent ECU's and have some good error reporting features, better than the gems based ECU's but you pay nearly double.

the gems stuff does have lambda logging certainly on the 700 series

 

[timdog]

Yeah, 1850+vat and that's before you enable the advanced tuning link, lambda port or even think about a loom!!

 

[EVOgone]

M800's are excellent ECU's and have some good error reporting features, better than the gems based ECU's but you pay nearly double.

the gems stuff does have lambda logging certainly on the 700 series

ECU's are only as good as the mapper........

 

[timdog]

ECU's are only as good as the mapper........

Never a truer word spoken!!

This is why i need my own lambda facility as the clio will not fit on my motorcycle dyno and i don't trust anyone else :dapprove:

 

[Andy GDI]

I cant disagree either.... EVO what are your thoughts on mapping then... what have you tired... what kinda of ARF do you think works best.. also the other thing I discuss with the other engine builders I know is how much ignition r****d to bring back from det to keep egrs down to a good level....

thoughts?

tim, you can get portable AFR meters now for reasonable money... PM me if you want to know more.

 

[ant]

how much ignition r****d to bring back from det to keep egrs down to a good level....

oooohhhh let me tell ya..........that one keeps me awake of a night!!


wtf????!!! lol

 

[timdog]

tim, you can get portable AFR meters now for reasonable money... PM me if you want to know more.

PM sent.

 

[Neil G]

I think the game is getting as close as possible to det for the power and backing off to allow some degree of safety margin (heat, bad fuel etc, etc).

Interesting thread....good to see what is possible although I won't be going down this route.

 

[Andy GDI]

neil, I agree was interested in other opinions.

Andy

 

[EVOgone]

I cant disagree either.... EVO what are your thoughts on mapping then... what have you tired... what kinda of ARF do you think works best.. also the other thing I discuss with the other engine builders I know is how much ignition r****d to bring back from det to keep egrs down to a good level....

thoughts?

tim, you can get portable AFR meters now for reasonable money... PM me if you want to know more.

Pay Mark Shead at MADevelopment or get Sam the dentist..! When its a turbo car it a hole new dimension literially..but this was from my EVO days. These are the men for the job.

For N/A i have only been exposed with DTA with Millington and Wilcox YB unit and some XE stuff from my old rallying days .....Ah remenis.....

So may cars are mapped on the dyno and not the road...! Im no mapper but i have seen enough bad ones in my day to understand the importance of one who knows what he's doing.

Regards to building engines then there are many but not many GOOD ones....wouldnt want to invest a lot of money for a poor build.

 

[BenR]

I think the game is getting as close as possible to det for the power and backing off to allow some degree of safety margin (heat, bad fuel etc, etc).

Interesting thread....good to see what is possible although I won't be going down this route.

Ignition timing is a tricky game, its much much more complex than fueling as thats simply a case of more of less, withing the start/stop perameters you dictate.

The old skool and relatively useless method of advancing till you pink (dont even get near det, true det or auto ignition will damage a piston in a single event and ruin an engine build in several) then retarding is practically useless. Firstoff, listning to det is the hard part, you wont be able to notice it accurately enough on a RR with all the ambient noise at about 110db, people who tell you they can are fooling themselves. You need a quality set of det cans, and even then its going to be hard even with an amplifier, you really need to have your ears honed to the particular freqency for that engine (ever engine will have a different natural frequency when pinking/knock/det occurs).

You HAVE to watch egt on every cylinder, and more importantly, you HAVE to know what egt your looking for inconjunction with the AFR your engine likes best and that all depends on how you built it and its mechanical octane. Its a game of constant fiddling between afr, egt and the torque output.

You could piddle all day with ignition timing. MBT and peak torque is what your looking for, but if egt's dont agree, then say goodbye to your exhaust valves, unless your running inconel. Advance too much and you might step over peak torque but still not get any abnormal combustion, but egt's will drop, you think your safe, sudden radiator temps increase because the piston is absorbing more heat than it wants and you end up with either a melt of seizure.

This is why chamber, piston crown, mixture control (not necessarily homegenous) has been pushed to the forefront of engine design reseach at the moment. You can put all the air and fuel you want in there, but if you cant burn it properly, then there is no point having it there at all.

 

[EVOgone]

Ignition timing is a tricky game, its much much more complex than fueling as thats simply a case of more of less, withing the start/stop perameters you dictate.

The old skool and relatively useless method of advancing till you pink (dont even get near det, true det or auto ignition will damage a piston in a single event and ruin an engine build in several) then retarding is practically useless. Firstoff, listning to det is the hard part, you wont be able to notice it accurately enough on a RR with all the ambient noise at about 110db, people who tell you they can are fooling themselves. You need a quality set of det cans, and even then its going to be hard even with an amplifier, you really need to have your ears honed to the particular freqency for that engine (ever engine will have a different natural frequency when pinking/knock/det occurs).

You HAVE to watch egt on every cylinder, and more importantly, you HAVE to know what egt your looking for inconjunction with the AFR your engine likes best and that all depends on how you built it and its mechanical octane. Its a game of constant fiddling between afr, egt and the torque output.

You could piddle all day with ignition timing. MBT and peak torque is what your looking for, but if egt's dont agree, then say goodbye to your exhaust valves, unless your running inconel. Advance too much and you might step over peak torque but still not get any abnormal combustion, but egt's will drop, you think your safe, sudden radiator temps increase because the piston is absorbing more heat than it wants and you end up with either a melt of seizure.

This is why chamber, piston crown, mixture control (not necessarily homegenous) has been pushed to the forefront of engine design reseach at the moment. You can put all the air and fuel you want in there, but if you cant burn it properly, then there is no point having it there at all.

Its all driven by OEM's relentless persuit of more performance and lower emmisions. Getting ever closer to Lamba (perfect air fuel ratio).

Toyota's lean burn petrol engine (90's)was a ground breaker as it had unrivalled MPG for the engine type.

The Big 3 German OEMs spent a fortunte trying to understand how. The engine was not that good apparently but all the results came from the mapping and there were amazed at how lean the engine was running without issues. ECU's have come a long way..

EGT's are getting higher and higher now especially in turo cars with the highest being (believe it or not the Smartcar) It has a cast Stainless steel turbine housing and reaches temps inexcess for 1020deg C.... Oh and when its that temp is only 6inches away from your feed next to the bulhead...!