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Neil G said:Interesting stuff....I learn't a bit about mapping etc from my Subaru days but have no desire to do anything involving ecu changes etc with my Renault.....I think if it comes to me wanting something more full on a car change would be on the cards again
It is an interesting point that a few people have made recently about tuning or changing car.
What would you be able to get to match a 200bhp/ton (useing Ross' as an extreme example) hot hatch on a country lane and still be able to stick the kids and shopping in at the weekend. Not including expensive to run jap barges.
Maybe I am missing something but I cant think of any cars (out of the box) that could match a clio with 5k's of mods (taking into account you can get a decent 182 for 9k).
Neil what would you go for if you wanted something a bit more full on?
EK9 + Mfactory gearing..
all very well changing car if you can afford it, ppl tune theirs because it is either easier to save a couple of grand or deal with the repayments on a smaller loan, then you have the running/insurance costs on 'faster' cars like evos etc. i could start again by chopping mine in & taking a loan of 10-12k to get maybe an evo 6/7, focus rs, dc5 (just 3 cars i like!), its that or a tb setup @4-5kish, its looking like the latter, i have a well paid job but i dont like to stretch my finances as i have other things to consider, house! i guess its about your circumstances and what you can afford. i like the idea of a well tuned individual car with no sticky back plastic, why did Nick Read spend all that £? wanted to/could do/individuality maybe..
Clio 172 mk2
MarkM said:
Agree with you to a certain extent about the Clio..it is a very able car out of the box both in a straight line and round the corners...I'm certainly impressed with it.
I'm going to mildly tune my car which means a decent sports cat, exhaust and filter and some uprated pads but that's as far as it's going as I do want to keep it looking standard and don't want to end up spending silly money chasing a few bhp here and there.
At the end of the day it is a matter of personal preference and I have a lot of respect for people that carry out serious engineering work on their cars....I just don't have the time or the commitment to do it.
If I was going for something more full on I'd probably go back and buy a Subaru estate or a Legacy which with a cheap ecu (Apexi) is pretty potent but looks like a farmers car
I agree on the value for money here. Bought my 172 cup as an ex-demo with 4k miles for 10k. Tried loads of other cars and couln't find anything even close to the money with the same performance. Had an integra type r 2 cars before. That was incredible as a package but had the downside of everyone trying to race you, high insurance, vandals, etc. Had a 250bhp westfield years back. Was bike fast but totally unusable on the road.
I reckon the clio is quicker than it feels and lets face it who has the balls to push something like an evo properly on the road. If you could add 20% power to a clio then i doubt the chassis would be messed up and the bigger stuff wouldn't get away on the straights so easily.
I reckon the clio is quicker than it feels and lets face it who has the balls to push something like an evo properly on the road. If you could add 20% power to a clio then i doubt the chassis would be messed up and the bigger stuff wouldn't get away on the straights so easily.
Clio 172 mk2
Agree mate
I never had the bottle to fully push my WRX on the road and as a result it did feel a bit dull.
Acceleration was absolutely ridiculous though once the turbo had spooled up....makes my 172 feel pedestrian in that department.
Problem was insurance (700pa), petrol costs (low 20s MPG) and the general responsibility that came with owning such a car....attention from scrotes, police etc, etc.
I never had the bottle to fully push my WRX on the road and as a result it did feel a bit dull.
Acceleration was absolutely ridiculous though once the turbo had spooled up....makes my 172 feel pedestrian in that department.
Problem was insurance (700pa), petrol costs (low 20s MPG) and the general responsibility that came with owning such a car....attention from scrotes, police etc, etc.
If you want Honda engine info especially N/A the best place is system R. They have the best results and the Pauls demo car would kick Renault ass....approx 245@wheels with good torque and idles fine. Its a daily driver..
Oh and thats with single TB, he is waiting for the TODA throttle boddies then even more hp...!
http://www.system-r.co.uk/system-r suppliers of japanese tuning accessories-carsdetail.asp?5
Oh and thats with single TB, he is waiting for the TODA throttle boddies then even more hp...!
http://www.system-r.co.uk/system-r suppliers of japanese tuning accessories-carsdetail.asp?5
EK9 + Mfactory gearing..
im sure most would want a honda at some point, great engines with loads of tuning goodies. i bought my rs because it was fun, cheap to run & suits my lifestyle, unfortunately tuning it is not so easy, but ive gone french so im gona live with it. like Evoo says it better kick ass for that outlay..
GuyS said:
Not to start up the CTR vs clio argument but -
*Cost a couple of grand more
*There ugly
*image
From what I have read and seen on TV etc. (I have never driven one)
*There no faster round a track then a clio (standard)
*duff steering
*The engine is all top end
No doubt the engine is very good but not really my thing.
MKIII 138
..thing is my car is fast enough for me, ive never had the balls or idiocy to push to silly levels in my 172 and even less so in my cup. im still getting a geuine 38mpg from my cup though and grp 16 insurance is the only bugger it cost me £58 per month to insure no points full no claims 27 yrs old etc.. (live in a poo pipe area)
but considering my cup hasnt got its rear seats in it should be around 1005kg all i need
is to get the genuine 172bhp i thought it had (may well have but i need to know) if i got 200bhp i.e just under £2k max from my cup then i would have near 200 break hp per tonne ! which when you compare to the high outputting hothatch avaliable (and has been for two years now) the Alfa147 GTA with 250bhp (247) that has 184.53bhp pertonne you would pull past that in fact apart from obvious traction from standing or rolling start and poor weather conditions (which i wouldnt race around in) a subaru impreza Impreza WRX PPP with 261bhp has 190.10 bhp per tonne ! so a cup with a genuine 200hp and no back seats once rolling would to a point i.e 120mph (then superior torque would no doubt push it past) a cup would be level.
shitty engines but you cant grumble with mods that would be almost invisible on a cup which can be picked up in good condition for less than 7k and are new`ish cars with 35-38mpg and grp 16 ins and would be with 1.5k-2k of proper GDI,AW tuning nearly as fast if not as fast in a straight line upto a decent enough speed to shock an STI (261) which will do 15-25mpg (if that) grp 20 insurance, higher tax, higher servicing costs, more nickability etc.. and much higher i.e about 5k more in price used for same age
in fact with 30more hp from stock a 172cup with its low kerb weight will keep with almost anything that has between 1350kg and 250bhp start to add 4wd and take your weight 1420 then you need 260-270 (trans loss also)
ohh and hondas sound are and awsome in the engine department but they cost more and perhaps arent as fun as sneaking up on a rapid saloon in a shopping trolley
but considering my cup hasnt got its rear seats in it should be around 1005kg all i need
is to get the genuine 172bhp i thought it had (may well have but i need to know) if i got 200bhp i.e just under £2k max from my cup then i would have near 200 break hp per tonne ! which when you compare to the high outputting hothatch avaliable (and has been for two years now) the Alfa147 GTA with 250bhp (247) that has 184.53bhp pertonne you would pull past that in fact apart from obvious traction from standing or rolling start and poor weather conditions (which i wouldnt race around in) a subaru impreza Impreza WRX PPP with 261bhp has 190.10 bhp per tonne ! so a cup with a genuine 200hp and no back seats once rolling would to a point i.e 120mph (then superior torque would no doubt push it past) a cup would be level.
shitty engines but you cant grumble with mods that would be almost invisible on a cup which can be picked up in good condition for less than 7k and are new`ish cars with 35-38mpg and grp 16 ins and would be with 1.5k-2k of proper GDI,AW tuning nearly as fast if not as fast in a straight line upto a decent enough speed to shock an STI (261) which will do 15-25mpg (if that) grp 20 insurance, higher tax, higher servicing costs, more nickability etc.. and much higher i.e about 5k more in price used for same age
in fact with 30more hp from stock a 172cup with its low kerb weight will keep with almost anything that has between 1350kg and 250bhp start to add 4wd and take your weight 1420 then you need 260-270 (trans loss also)
ohh and hondas sound are and awsome in the engine department but they cost more and perhaps arent as fun as sneaking up on a rapid saloon in a shopping trolley
EVOgone said:
Guy near me has a 235 hp CTR, mods are manifold, IK, exhaust and a unichip he runs same times and terminals at 1 mph more than my 181 hp Cup used to(both RR at same place, also do same 60 ft time)
Only mods on Cup were panel filter, de-cat, exhaust and R Sport ECU. Since added a Maxogen (which is my best mod so far imo) so rekon id be beating his times and terminals now, rekon I must have about 185 hp now, got a AWT/Inlet coming along with a unchip so 13's will be on the cards this year. Take of that what you will....
Neil82cup said:
CTRs are terrible getting off the line plus they weigh more...Hey rolling start would be different and the power diff really shows when you are above 80..!
Guy near mine has similar mods (to your friend) from ABP and his car was about 5/6 car lengthin front of (a cup with exhaust /de/cat) upto 140..infact from 20 to 60 slightly gained.
Get the right bits (systemR) as i described - Toda man / exhaust / Gruppe M IK and K-pro ECU then i can assure me its a different ball game. Mapping is the key area and i can assure you that you would need a very modded or lightweight clio to beat it..! Terminals are 105 for basic breathing mods / K-pro mapped ECU...220@wheels is the norm results even Integra Type R owners are suprised how much quicker they are than their std 220bhp cars...
Anyways i love the clio but the CTR has a lot more potential and tuning bits (that work) its all if you like the looks or not...but the engine & gearbox for sure are a lot better.
EVOgone said:
I'd LOVE to see it pull on my Cup 20-60 lol! I have no doubt it would pull on my lightly modded Cup over 120 but anything below that a 240 HP CTR won't be going any where. Guys mods are
K&N Typhoon(he had a AEM but Typhoon made more hp when tested), Toda manifold, Magnex 6x4 oval system, Hondata heatshield and unichip- 234BHP
Impressive gains for the mods, also agree about gear box, I just wish they weren't as common or I would have one by now (fancy a DC5 with the above mods you have listed next, do they tune as well?).
Does anyone know why they are so much more tuneable? Is it simply down to the VTEC or do they just have much better heads/inlets etc as standard?
Neil82cup said:
They have probably one of the best 16v heads in present and past production, couple that with better bottom end geometry, stronger components and better all round design, allowing a higher rpm threshold, which again allows you to run more cam and make more power.....which is where the benefits of the new i-Vtec come in.
Neil82cup said:
For your questions :-
20-60 (2nd gear) prob wont be much in it but then again most cars with even more hp wouldnt, this advantage is due to the lighter weight of the clio. From 3rd onward it would pull away and continue to do so..just like caterhams elises are really quick to 60 but above the advantage gets less and less as hp comes in to the force.
DC5 - is equally tuneable and has a few upgraded bits already fitted like improve inlet manifold etc. Hence they are 220 std. DC5s are a lot higher in running cost as the insurance is GP20 (import only) parts especially body parts need to be ordered from Jap etc. Really nice car though and would concider one but only in white..!
