172 handling transformed =)

[JJ172]

Just had a select few mods applied to my Mk2 Clio 172, using lessons learnt from the Cup race cars and Im amazed at the transformation

Basically it involves new springs and some geometry changes front and rear.

The result is amazing. The car handles even better than standard, with improved turn in and almost complete absence of that twitchy rear end, and the ride is still comfortable!

Itll get its inaugural outing at Palmersport on 27th June, after which the company in question will be able to offer it as a complete package.

If youre interested, drop me a PM.

 

[BenR]

so you lowered it and added the camber plates for the rear stub axle, camber bolts on the front and adj the castor?

 

[JJ172]

Correct BenR - go to the top of the class!

And what a difference a few choice mods make!!

 

[BenR]

*smug git*

 

[rt172]

What sort of price to buy and fit? Lowering my MK2 on some stiffer springs made a big difference. This sounds even more promising.

 

[JJ172]

I was sceptical at first, but was totally converted once the mods had been fitted. Before, the car was quite twitchy at the back even with the lower/stiffer springs and a little unpredictable. However, on the track it was fine. Now its a totally different animal - cant wait to try it on the track again!

 

[BenR]

i offered these items a long time ago, along with cliocup bilstien damper inserts in custom adj platforms, now everybody wants coilovers and this stuff....oh well...

they are cheap an easy to get hold of.

 

[JJ172]

Quote: Originally posted by Rhys on 02 June 2003

What sort of price to buy and fit?

Not as much as youd think. Were just perfecting the exact setup (hence the track outing) but its going to be setup for road use first and foremost. If theres enough interest, Im sure we could organise a group buy to make things cheaper. Ill advise asap on price.

 

[JJ172]

Quote: Originally posted by BenR on 02 June 2003

i offered these items a long time ago, along with cliocup bilstien damper inserts in custom adj platforms, now everybody wants coilovers and this stuff....oh well...

Really? Did you fit them on your car or a demo car and experiment with the geometry settings for the rear? Im amazed they were legal on the race cars! Did you use to race in the Cup series, or spanner for someone who did?

 

[TimO172]

Give me more info, regards to what you have done, Tim

 

[philip]

Im also interested

 

[KDF]

Sounds interesting..

More details would be good.. although what benr said you have done just went right over the top of my head.. apart from lowering, I know what that is.. oh and I sorta know what adj the castor is .. is that like toe in ?

 

[viceroy]

Would this kit go on a mk1 or is the geometry too different?

Would it be possible to get the setup details from you so I could setup my car here (South Africa).

 

[JJ172]

As BenR and I have mentioned, this is nothing new, some some choice setup mods from the Clio Cup racing cars, tuned for the road.

The supplier in question is a veteran racer and Clio Cup Race Car team owner, hence his expert knowledge on all things Clio! Hes using my car as a test mule to hone the exact settings, one test of which will be at Bedford on 27th June (pop over and say hello if youre coming on this RenaultSport day).

The kit is simple enough to fit, but as with race cars, its all in the geometry settings (as no doubt BenR will vouch for) so each car would be treated individually, rather than applying the same mod throughout. There is also the opportunity to tune the car to the drivers taste, as required.

If there is enough interest, there is definitely the opportunity for a group buy option, thus reducing the costs (the parts are cheap enough, so the cost reduction could well be in the labour).

Could I ask those interested to PM me with your email address?

 

[KDF]

Before I rush off and PM you what costs are we talking about 400 or 4000 ? and im guessing I would have to travel a fair bit to get it all fitted and adjusted.

 

[JJ172]

Theyre based in the South. Cost of the parts is very little (£100 ish), then theres the labour on top, including setting up, so a few hundred quid rather than 1000s!!

 

[BenR]

Quote: Originally posted by _KDF on 03 June 2003


Sounds interesting..

More details would be good.. although what benr said you have done just went right over the top of my head.. apart from lowering, I know what that is.. oh and I sorta know what adj the castor is .. is that like toe in ?

Toe is toe, nothing else, camber is the angle against the verticle when you view the car from the front, if the top of the wheel leans in, its negative camber,if ti leans out, its positive camber, castor is the line throgh the 2 steering swivel points against the verticle.

http://images.cardomain.com/member_img_a/322000-322999/322115_37_full.jpg

The distance between the castor intersect and the tyre centre line is castor offset.

Dampers and springs only control the motion of the wheels over the bumps, to keep them in positive contact, it is the suspension geometry and how they changes as suspension moves and under dynamic forces that dictate how the car will handle.

The rear camber plates are nothing but plates that stick between the axle and stub axle, 4 bolts, camber bolts on the front are just bolts you replace in the hub/strut bolts. Castor can (if it was) be chanced by moving the ros end, lower arm length or the strut top mount location.

 

[BenR]

Quote: Originally posted by JJ172 on 02 June 2003

Really? Did you fit them on your car or a demo car and experiment with the geometry settings for the rear? Im amazed they were legal on the race cars! Did you use to race in the Cup series, or spanner for someone who did?

I tested the cliocup races in Zhu Hai as we were thinking of brining the series to asia, but that fell through so the demo car was converted to super production class.

Rear settins only went as far as camber and toe, nothing else can really help it apart from the trailing arm pivot but we werent allowed to play with this. the tiniest bit of toe out makes the rear VERY lively as youa ffect the cars slip angle.

I offered the parts ages ago, built by an extreemly good racing team, but no interest at all was given so it was scrapped.

fitting is a home affair, and it really isnt complicated at all

 

[KDF]

Quote: Originally posted by BenR on 03 June 2003
Quote: Originally posted by _KDF on 03 June 2003Sounds interesting..More details would be good.. although what benr said you have done just went right over the top of my head.. apart from lowering, I know what that is.. oh and I sorta know what adj the castor is .. is that like toe in ?Toe is toe, nothing else, camber is the angle against the verticle when you view the car from the front, if the top of the wheel leans in, its negative camber,if ti leans out, its positive camber, castor is the line throgh the 2 steering swivel points against the verticle.http://images.cardomain.com/member_img_a/322000-322999/322115_37_full.jpgThe distance between the castor intersect and the tyre centre line is castor offset.Dampers and springs only control the motion of the wheels over the bumps, to keep them in positive contact, it is the suspension geometry and how they changes as suspension moves and under dynamic forces that dictate how the car will handle. The rear camber plates are nothing but plates that stick between the axle and stub axle, 4 bolts, camber bolts on the front are just bolts you replace in the hub/strut bolts. Castor can (if it was) be chanced by moving the ros end, lower arm length or the strut top mount location.


yep thanks ben .. that cleared that little misunderstanding right up

So camber is the angle of the tyre looking from the front of the car.

Whats toe then ? i thought toe was camber.

Good news about the costs though I like the sound of 100s over 1000s, and would probably be willing to travel.

Sorry Ben i must have missed that post about you offering these parts otherwise I would have been interested. The handling of the 172 just doesnt compare to my old 205GTi so I was looking for some improvments.

 

[BenR]

Top is toe in, bottom toe out. Toe is the angle that the wheel centreline is pointing relative to the zero which is dead ahead. Toe in is when the direction of the wheels will point in, toe out is when the wheels point out, a very important but basic thing to get right, in general its best to run with a tad toe in, about 30minutes.

http://images.cardomain.com/member_img_a/322000-322999/322115_56_full.jpg

Camber is this:

http://images.cardomain.com/member_img_a/322000-322999/322115_55_full.jpg

 

[JJ172]

Thanks for the update BenR, and Im sure everyones glad of the technical explanation

To _KDF and others, if youre coming to Bedford on 27th June, pop over for a ride and see for yourself whether or not the mods are worth it.

 

[KDF]

Bedford is a long way for me to go .. heh

Thx Benr for the tech stuff, wouldnt running a toe angle of anything other than 0 cause excessive tyre wear ?

 

[BenR]

no it wont, your std settinga re about 0.35 deg toe in.

 

[viceroy]

BenR, is that front and back?

Dont slight toe in on the rears improve straight line stability?

and slight toe in on the fronts improve cornering?

 

[BenR]

the rears, yes......the fronts.....its entirely dependant on teh speed/length/surface/angle of the corner. On slow tight circuts, running toe out on the front can help.

The rear, running toe in is a safety measure, running perfectly straight or even the tiniest amount of toe out will make the car more lively and agile, but its not all said results, changing this and that will not always equal that.

 

[Dansta]

pm sent!

 

[JJ172]

Thanks for the PMs. So far, Ive got (if you havent PMd me with your email, please do so):-







mick_cup

livio

viceroy

philip

pep87

DannyBoy

_KDF

TimO172


Rhys

 

[JJ172]

Cheers for the PMs! I now have 10 people on the list.

livio, _KDF, TimO172, Rhys

please PM with your email address!

 

[philip]

jj im away on the 27th. i would have loved to have a look at the car. Ill wait to hear from you re details etc.

 

[JJ172]

philip - no problem. Ive spoken to my supplier today and hes busy costing a group buy" package for everyone. Will keep you all posted...

 

[Darren555]

So am I right in saying the main improvement of this kit is to provide camber adjustment for the rear wheels so your alignment can be set up to improve handling?

What do the camber bolts at ther front do? I thought front camber was already adjustable?

I take it springs are not included in the deal. Would they be able to supply & fit Eibachs as well or are lowering springs not necessarily required?

Cheers, Darren

 

[BenR]

um, you seem a bit confused, the rear camber (look at the last page, it explains camber as i think you have it confused with toe) is adj to a fixed amount with the sue of shims that go inbetween the trailing arm and stub axle.

The fronts are not adj for camber, the bolts change the camber to a set amount.

I think this is based on a std car as a lowered car will mean camber changes are different to those ona std car as you encounter roll camber settings.

 

[Darren555]

Cheers Ben.

So does this kit fit a mk1 172?

Ben, you suggest that this is based on a standard rather than lowered car but in JJ172s first post on this thread he says it included springs. Price seems a bit low for those though (£100)

 

[BenR]

so it does! lol.

if its intended to work on a lowered car then it will.

itll fit MK1 and MK2 as they are the same.

If JJ172 doesnt mind me answering his posts lol!!!

better as him, as he knows what they doods offering.

 

[Darren555]

Thanks again Ben

Yes I guess I need a reply off JJ172 as to the price/make of the springs as I am sure the £100 parts price he mentions cannot include these surely.

Darren

 

[BenR]

springs are cheap to get made.....you can get a set for about 30 quid to your specs.

 

[JJ172]

Thanks for all the PMs...and sorry for not replying sooner, but its been pretty hectic over the last few days.

Right, the kit will fit Mk1s and Mk2s. The £100 indicative cost was for only for the shims/camber bolts and -not- the springs...sorry, I thought that was pretty clear!

Were in the process of adjusting my car to get the best out of it (for my style of driving) but the beauty of the mods is that it can be fine-tuned to suit -your- style of driving if you wish. The emphasis however is on improving the overall (and already excellent) handling on the 172. Were also looking at improvements to the braking, mainly because I like track days!!

In answer to your questions re. lowering, you can use any spring set with the geometry changes, but we prefer the Eibach kits as they suit the Mk2 172 at least very very well. And yes, the geometry mods have been made -after- the car was lowered on Eibachs (they lowered it 15mm on the front and 5mm on the rear). And yes, as I think BenR has mentioned, if you lower a car you get a slight amount of increased negative camber.

The most impressive mod thus far is the rear geometry changes (the shims come in various sizes so a certain degree of experimentation is needed - but youll benefit from us having done that already on my car!). The car feels much more stable and sure-footed. The front geometry changes improve turn-in, by increasing negative camber. Alas, the Cup Racer bolts dont fit the Mk2 so weve made some suitable ones up. For non Cup cars there is also the option of modding the Mk2 172 to change the castor angles.

Not long now till 27th June and we can really give my Mk2 172 some stick and rate the mods for road -and- track. Then Ill nail down a package price. For all those whove asked if it can be supplied as a kit, alas, no it cant - it needs to be fitted by my supplier, who will check all the geometry settings and road test it to make sure its set up perfectly. I know BenR will probably reply saying theyre easy enough parts to fit, and I dont doubt some of your spannering abilities, but its simply not an option Im afraid. It wont be mega-bucks, and the few extra quid you spend on the drive in drive out service will leave you smiling all the way home....

 

[Darren555]

Can your supplier provide & fit Eibachs at the same & if so how much for parts & labour please.



Cheers,

Darren

 

[philip]

looked at k-tec site re eibachs?

 

[KDF]

damn, I think this is really cool, price is not to bad and I want to lower my car a bit but not excessivly so 15/5mm sounds great. Its just the drive I would have to undertake to get to the place..