172 new top mount / modified spacer issues

[andy_casey]

Just fitted some new top mounts to my 172 ph2 and used the modified spacer from Renault. The parts that came off the car were all original and Renault and the shocks were too.

When I took the car for a test drive, there was a horrendous clunk from one side. A bit of investigation later and it seemed that the modified spacer wasn't tightening down on to the top mount bearing but was stopping short, bottoming out on the thread of the shock, leaving 3-4mm movement on one side and about 1mm on the other. Not ideal! I ended up having to use the old spacer and top cap to prevent the movement...

Has anyone else had this problem?

I'm going to look into a solution but whatever I do, I'll need to spend some money. One option is to take some threads out of the Renault spacer, another is to find a washer to take up the slack and the final thing would be to design a custom spacer to do the job properly but a batch of 2 might be a little costly, so this is only really an option if others have the same issues.

 

[andy_casey]

Given this a little thought today and I think that I've got a very cost effective solution. Just need to measure an old style spacer and check that a few dimension are the same as the new one and that they don't bind on the new top mounts. If they are then using the old spacer and a full M14x? nut (11mm tall), I should be able to remove the need for the strut top washers, used by many to eliminate creaking, and use the new top mount cups that came in the kit... all for the cost of 2 full nuts in the correct pitch and the re-using of my original spacers. The other option is to use an M14 half nut (8mm tall) and M14 plain washer (2.5mm tall) to achieve a similar stack height. Both options are a lot less expensive than the £11 for 2 modified spacers from Renault that need further modification.

Option 2, which would not solve any potential creaking and would require fitting with the strut off the car again would be to use an M16 washer under the spring top cap.

Option 3 is to buy a 16mm drill bit and modify the modified spacers but I'll feel a little peeved if I have to do that.

I'll pop the old spacer out of the car and report back on my progress.

I'll also get a proper spacer drawn up and some quotes to have it made out of stainless but I doubt it'll be sensible money.

 

[andy_casey]

Right, had some time to look into this today and decided to draw it all up, so I could see what was going on behind the scenes. I found that in 2 areas, the design of the modified spacer could lead to issues, as it interacts with something other than the top mount bearing, which it should be holding in place! This ties in exactly with what I found. Here's a cross section of what I have done, with the problem areas marked. I have also drawn the old stlye top mount with the 3mm creak fixing washer in place, to see how the new spacers compare to the new design. What I have found is that the new design sits in between the old design and the old design plus a 3mm washer. This should reduce creaking issues in some cases but not when running more extreme camber or castor.

My fix will be to use the old style spacer with an M14x1.5 full nut, measuring some 11mm in height, and then the new style top cup and lock nut. This will sit the top cup 1-2mm higher than on the old setup with the washer, which still creaked on my car, and should make things work properly. It also means that I only need one 22mm spanner to take off the top mounts in the future but that's just luck.

 

[andy_casey]

A quick comparison between the original top mount and using an M14 half nut & washer or an M14 full nut. According to the standard sizes, the nut and washer will be slightly lower.

 

[andy_casey]

Just to finish this off -

I've just purchased 2 off M14x1.5 half nuts (7mm thickness) and 2 off M14 washers (2.5mm thickness) from a local fastners place for a massive £1.10 the lot. The washer and half nut are an equivalent thickness to the old style top mount top cup and 3mm anti-creak washer leaving just about 1 full thread above the lock nut, so the top cup sits in roughly the same place with the top of the new nut sitting a little higher, due to a difference in design, as shown in the diagrams above. A full nut (~11mm thickness) is as large as you could go without running out of threads.

Fitting was really simple, as I only needed a 22mm swan neck ring spanner or diesel injector socket for the both the half nut and Renault locking nut (as opposed to a 17mm & 22mm for the old setup or a 22mm & 27mm for the new style) and there was easy access to the 6mm hex to make sure things were properly tightened.

A brief test drive shows that all is well with no clunks or grinding and all with £10 back in my pocket for the returned spacers, minus costs.

 

[Ezra-RS]

Do you know what size the 3mm old style washer is? Inside dimension I mean. Not to keen to buy them of eBay for a lot more than they're worth.

Also kudos on the drawing skills!

 

[andy_casey]

Cheers, I wanted to show what was happening when I encountered this issue and also that the solution was simple, cheap and effective.

I still have my washers, they were for sale but there were no takers. Let me know if you're after some:-

http://www.cliosport.net/forum/show...lines-172-Cup-Rear-Dampers-Anti-creak-Washers

Dimensions are approx 19mm ID, 40mm OD, 3mm thick.

 

[koi]

Nice diagrams, will keep this in mind.

Changing mine to the new style mounts at the weekend.

 

[fluffy dice]

hi i'm having trouble with top mounts also but i think its the chassis worn elongated on drivers side more than passenger and at 3/4 lock you feel the geometry change ,welder out tommoz to true them back up.but the reason i jumped in you thread is you say new style top mounts meaning there are a few designs ?and why were they changed ,also has anyone heard of it before.

 

[snecky7277]

Great info mate, I've been having a nightmare trying to sort all this out. The local Renault dealer parts man was not very helpful to say the least! off to my local fastener's on Monday.
Cheers.

 

[STEVE.M]

Just fitted some new top mounts to my 172 ph2 and used the modified spacer from Renault. The parts that came off the car were all original and Renault and the shocks were too.

When I took the car for a test drive, there was a horrendous clunk from one side. A bit of investigation later and it seemed that the modified spacer wasn't tightening down on to the top mount bearing but was stopping short, bottoming out on the thread of the shock, leaving 3-4mm movement on one side and about 1mm on the other. Not ideal! I ended up having to use the old spacer and top cap to prevent the movement...

Has anyone else had this problem?

I'm going to look into a solution but whatever I do, I'll need to spend some money. One option is to take some threads out of the Renault spacer, another is to find a washer to take up the slack and the final thing would be to design a custom spacer to do the job properly but a batch of 2 might be a little costly, so this is only really an option if others have the same issues.

I had this problem,and as you can see in the photo`s,the thread of the modified nut bottoms out on the damper rod before making contact with the bearing.Which top mount kit you have is totally irrelavent to this problem,before someone says it only works with the modified kit.
This was with some Spax shocks,and was exactly the same with the Gaz GHA`s I HAD to replace them with.
Numerous CS members have had this problem,but these are still being supplied without acknowledgement of the potential problem.
If anyone knows if this a design fault,or incorrect manufacture,please post.
If you have successfully utilised these nuts,part no R82 00 867 250 without modification,please post the make of shock you were using.
Thank you Andy for your excellent posts.

 

[andy_casey]

Glad that my research helped
Did this a few years ago now, and all still spot on.

 

[Lozza-p]

I just left the washer in on mine and they were fine

 

[DannyR]

So I had to buy everything from new, I have no idea why the new spacer bit doesn't come with the new kit.

But on FK Konigsports it also doesn't fit. This is ridiculous, especially because the parts are £10 each!

Any one got the old style spacer, does the old style spacer fit the new rubbers?

@dmallett

 

[dmallett]

I got a set of spare old top mounts @DannyR

 

[DannyR]

I got a set of spare old top mounts @DannyR

Keep them to one side, I'll come grab them at the weekend if that's ok! Thank you

 

[16v-clio]

Is anyone using one of the pictured methods with the new style top hat and separate nut?
How much movement should the rubber part have?

 

[FR_Team]

Who can tell dimensions an old spaser?
Wants to change back oem shock, but miss this part.

 

[psychedelicbiker]

Hi guys, I'm looking for some clarity on top mounts as I have bought new ones for my trophy. I have bought some cup shocks to fit while my Sachs are being serviced. My Sachs shock I think have the upgraded spacer nut as it is 27mm hex. The cup shocks have come with solid top mounts which I would rather not use as I already find the ride harsh. I have been unable to remove the lower nut from the sachs shocks. Even with spring compressors on I have broken two allen keys trying to free the nut. The spacer nuts that were on the cup shocks have a very small diameter so there is a huge clearance on rubber top mounts so these cannot be used. I have new sets of standard and febi top mounts. So the question I'd like to clear up is with the febi top mounts, is the lower spacer nut no longer required? And if so do the shocks need to be fitted with the springs compressed? The shock is seemingly too long to mount with the spring extended. Apologies for the essay. 😛