172 turbo?

[Muttley1]

Carefull modifications, thats an interesting way to say a different turbo's needed

ha ha, that's not what I mean, it's just that I've been told this from the horses mouth as it were! But I'm not the expert so to try to continue my explanation may well lead me into bullshit mode! lol

 

[DMS]

Everyone gets hung up on BHP figures. Torque is what matters most IMO.
Torque is a measure of how much turning force the engine can turn the wheels with at a given RPM. BHP is simply a figure to show how much work the engine is doing at a given moment in time.

 

[Muttley1]

Everyone gets hung up on BHP figures. Torque is what matters most IMO.
Torque is a measure of how much turning force the engine can turn the wheels with at a given RPM. BHP is simply a figure to show how much work the engine is doing at a given moment in time.

Although I've been talking about bhp......I agree!

 

[T.Trophy]

ha ha, that's not what I mean, it's just that I've been told this from the horses mouth as it were! But I'm not the expert so to try to continue my explanation may well lead me into bulls**t mode! lol

Wonder if it was the same horses mouth that told me I'd get 300bhp with similar torque figures?

I've just been on ktecs web page and it now actually says with the stage 2 kit you'll be "running arounnd 300bhp" must have revised it, I wonder if they'd give you your money back if you couldn't get anywher near it? LOL

 

[chrispy.clio]

There is a point where the power becomes unusable, but most of the time you never reach it. I find that when you drive one all the time you get used to it and you know when it's going to come on boost and start making crazy levels of torque. You drive the car differently and as a result and putting the power down isn't really an issue.
If you drive everywhere planting your foot straight to the floor you'll get major wheelspin and torque steer - especially when exiting a corner. You learn to be smoother and more progressive on the throttle when exiting a corner and it's always easy to tell when you can "boot it" without spinning anymore.
Decent tyres make a huge difference as well. I used to have Toyo Proxes on the front and the wheels would spin even in the dry. Now I've got better tyres I don't get any spin in the dry and very little in the wet.
I will admit that an LSD would make a massive difference to cornering speeds though, since it'd make it possible to get on the power sooner out of a bend without spinning the inside wheel. Hence why I'll be investing in one later on in the year.

Couldnt agree with you more with learing to cope with the added power and learning when to feed the power on etc.

The more you know how a car handles the faster you can drive.

People to say an LSD is one of the best additions you can make, so i'll eventually buy one

 

[Muttley1]

lol I did say around that figure with other engine mods too!

 

[ND04]

What figures did yours make?

228.1 running 6 psi mapped by rs tuning

 

[T.Trophy]

228.1 running 6 psi mapped by rs tuning

Got to be happy with that? what torque did you get?

I can't believe how well the mapping has come along from when I first had mine done @205.9bhp

 

[DMS]

Pretty good result that.

 

[ND04]

Got to be happy with that? what torque did you get?

I can't believe how well the mapping has come along from when I first had mine done @205.9bhp

really pleased thought it would only get between 212-220 bhp

Here's my print out from RS Tuning. :approve:

 

[T.Trophy]

Scott will be well chuffed when he see's this as when he bought my kit I gave him a conservative estimate of 210, but looks like theres plenty of scope for more power.

Just a quick one though, what bore exhaust are you running? and have you ditched the cat?

 

[ND04]

Scott will be well chuffed when he see's this as when he bought my kit I gave him a conservative estimate of 210, but looks like theres plenty of scope for more power.

Just a quick one though, what bore exhaust are you running? and have you ditched the cat?

its a scorpion exhaust dont what bore it is the cats gone got a de cat pipe from k-tec

 

[scotty2hotty81]

Scott will be well chuffed when he see's this as when he bought my kit I gave him a conservative estimate of 210, but looks like theres plenty of scope for more power.

Just a quick one though, what bore exhaust are you running? and have you ditched the cat?

aaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr yeah!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[sideways danny]

Everyone gets hung up on BHP figures. Torque is what matters most IMO.
Torque is a measure of how much turning force the engine can turn the wheels with at a given RPM. BHP is simply a figure to show how much work the engine is doing at a given moment in time.

i'm gonna give that a big kick in the nuts and say neither of those is true. Area under the graph is the key. A big peak bhp at the top of the revs is worthless, you need power and torque to get you up the revs, not when you've already got there.

 

[T.Trophy]

Best give those supercharger conversions with there low torque a miss then

 

[sideways danny]

It won't. Not if you plan on installing any of the currently available kits. You might get about 280ish with the right setup.

From what I understand from talking to someone with a very good understanding in this game! a 'turbo kit' will reach the 250-260 ish mark, but with other careful modifications more can be achieved!

Carefull modifications, thats an interesting way to say a different turbo's needed

That turbo is quite capable of blowing enough air for 300bhp. I've done it. multiple times. I've seen 280+ at ~1 bar (peak), and 1.2 bar is a good safe limit for the turbo, so should see around 300. give it some ignition timing and you'll see some power and lower EGTs

Worst part of any of the existing mechanical kits is the exhaust manifold, that's your biggest limitation. It's OK, does a job, fits in a pretty tight space and gives reasonable capability, but a tubular manifold would be desirable.

 

[sideways danny]

Best give those supercharger conversions with there low torque a miss then

area under the graph low torque is relative, still making as much or more torque on a low boost SC, than a low boost turbo

 

[T.Trophy]

On what cars have you seen this turbo fitted?

 

[sideways danny]

seen 280+ at 1 bar on clios. I posted the graphs and boost logs only a couple of weeks ago

 

[T.Trophy]

Well why are none of the recent conversions getting anywhere near it then?

 

[172Ben]

What turbo does it use?

 

[sideways danny]

GT28R (gt2560)

 

[172Ben]

Very good turbo, GT25R was common on the punto i had, good for 240bhp easily, GT28R some guy is using on a 1.6 conversion and pushing 300bhp easily.

 

[T.Trophy]

With a modified t3 housing that drops the AR from .60 to .42

 

[sideways danny]

Well why are none of the recent conversions getting anywhere near it then?

do you really want to open that can of worms?

 

[sideways danny]

With a modified t3 housing that drops the AR from .60 to .42

that's what the GT28R is anyway

 

[T.Trophy]

Yeah, or PM me.

Please don't say it's the ignition timing as that has nothing to do with boost drop that were all experiencing.

As you've said it would put out approx 280hp at 1 bar but the problem is everyone seems to have 12 psi at WOT and high rpm

 

[T.Trophy]

that's what the GT28R is anyway

All the GT28R's I've seen in stock form have a .60 comp housing.

For ref

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/catelog/Turbochargers/GT25/GT2560R_466541_4.htm

 

[sideways danny]

Please don't say it's the ignition timing as that has nothing to do with boost drop that were all experiencing.

you're wrong, timing effects boost directly as it's effecting exhaust gasses

 

[sideways danny]

save this image and zoom in on it to see the scale. the middle plot is MAP (it's absolute, 200kpa is 1 bar above atmospheric)

 

[T.Trophy]

It's not the timing mate, you'll see this when you get Darren back on the 25th

 

[sideways danny]

i wont get anything back. I've only even seen his car with the engine out and Mike building it up to put back in

 

[T.Trophy]

Sorry mate thought you worked at Ktec now.

But Darren is going back for some more mapping on the 25th, so it will be interesting to see what conclusions are drawn from the day.

In all fairness me and you've have had this conversion a few times now so think we'll just have to disagree on where we think the problem lies.

 

[DMS]

Danny's had nothing to do with my car (I don't think?). :S
But if you're saying the timing is the issue, then that implies that both Andy @ K-Tec and Paul @ RS Tuning aren't mapping them correctly. I'm not trying to open a can of worms here, but with the reputation both guys have got for mapping I can't see that being true. I've got no experience of Paul's work but I certainly haven't got the impression that Andy doesn't know what he's doing.
After the conversion the car wasn't very nice to drive because it wasn't mapped properly. Since Andy mapped it for 0.5 bar it's been a joy to drive, and still is at 0.7.

Is the car actually going to make an extra 50-70bhp with another 0.3 bar though? Or even with another 0.5? I remain sceptical at the moment but I won't moan until the mapping is finished.

 

[sideways danny]

your car's on low boost on just actuator pressure (6/7psi) IIRC Darren? That's all it's mapped for. Running 1 bar will make a MASSIVE difference

 

[DMS]

The actuator can't go above about 0.5 bar without causing a leak.
I've got a boost controller now as well (MS-IBC Gizzmo). It's running about 10psi boost at the moment but I don't know if it would make more power at the same pressure if more time was spent mapping it. I guess I'll find out when I go back down to K-Tec.
They're going to fit me a Forge actuator and set it to around 10psi / 0.7 bar then make it work alongside the boost controller. I haven't got a clue how or why, it's beyond my admittedly poor knowledge of the subject.

 

[T.Trophy]

Here you go Darren a quick run down on how actuators work.

As you know the actuator is connected to a vacuum line that runs from your inlet manifold, inside it has a diaphagm which compresses a pre tensioned spring. If the spring is 10psi (and pretensioned correctly) it will take 10psi of pressure from the manifold to compress the spring. This in turn will push the wastegate open and divert exhaust gasses past the turbine wheel and your boost will start to drop, when it drops below 10psi (@manifold) the wastegate will close. This will carry on opening and closing regulating your boost to 10psi.

Unfortunatley this is quite a crude (but effective) method of boost control that works better on some setups rather than others.

Now we'll talk about back pressure, as has been established boost is a measurement of air flow restriction, therefore the turbo has become a restriction to exhasut gasses and will cause back pressure between the turbine and cylinder head. Now this is inherently worse on systems using log manifolds such as whats fitted to our clios and obviously becomes greater the higher up the rev range (more airflow=more back pressure) you go.

Now all this back pressure will be pressing against the wastegate located in the turbine housing. So imagine if we have say 3psi of pressure pressing hard against the wastegate this means that it will only take 7psi of manifold pressure to compress the spring in the actuator. If the back pressure was 5psi, it would only take 5psi of manifold presure and so on and so on.

So when you put your foot down in your car the boost will hit its peak and as the back pressure builds in the turbo manifold it gradually decreses the amount of intake manifold pressure that is required to open the wastegate, this is most commonly known as boost creep.

So how do we get round this? Well we fit a fancy boost controller. What this does is use the inlet manifold pressure as a reference source and blocks any boost pressure from reaching the actuator. This in theory (if still using a 10 psi actuator) would require 10psi of back pressure to force the wastegate open and should therefore allow you to run any boost setting you want.

Go back 2 months and my boost control set up consisted of a 1bar forge actuator, gizzmo ms ibc and guess what? Still mega boost drop LOL so don't get your hopes up that the 10psi actuator is going to change things to much (unless your current actuator is only 2psi and the back pressure is blowing it open)

Hope this helps mate, and if anyone spots anything I've missed feel free to add it.

Steve

 

[sideways danny]

So when you put your foot down in your car the boost will hit its peak and as the back pressure builds in the turbo manifold it gradually decreses the amount of intake manifold pressure that is required to open the wastegate, this is most commonly known as boost creep.

That's not what boost creep is. Boost creep is at the higher end of boost control, when the wastegate is not big enough to bypass enough exhaust gas away from the turbine. This causes the boost to go up even when the wategate is fully opened

 

[T.Trophy]

Damn, it was supposed to read "this is most commonly percieved as boost creep, however boost creep is at the higher end of boost control, when the wastegate is not big enough to bypass enough exhaust gas away from the turbine. This causes the boost to go up even when the wategate is fully opened"

I'll see if I can get a mod to edit it for me.

Cheers

 

[DMS]

I think I get what you're saying. Basically the actuator controls the movement of the wastegate and the boost controller effectively dictates what the actuator does by preventing boost pressure from reaching it?
So how does the it prevent the pressure from reaching the actuator? Something to do with increasing the amount of fuel so that more of the air going into the engine gets burnt off, or am I on completely the wrong lines?