182 Cup Front End into Mk1 Valver

[GasManLS7]

Anyone done this before? I'm looking for advice to make I've got everything I need and have thought of everything. Parts I'm planning to use:

JC5 Gearbox
Cup 182 Driveshafts (which ones fit?)
Bridgecraft roll centre and bump steer hubs (are these ok with the valver subframe and steering rack?)
Cup lower arms
AST 5100 for a Cup
ARB from a 182 Cup (Does this mount to the subframe the same?)
182 exhaust manifold with the valver manifold end plate welded on
182 brakes with CL pads

Also for the rear I'm looking at fitting 182 cup stub axles and the PMS stub axle spacer kit. I believe this will require the rear beam to be drilled and tapped to accept the bolts for the hubs, is this correct? Anyone put 182 cup stub axles on a Mk1 before and know if there is much else involved?

Any help appreciated thanks.

 

[Brookie.]

I know @Daniel did one a few years back and a few others too.

Search 'MK1 172' on here and it should bring up what you're looking for

 

[GasManLS7]

Cheers mate thanks a lot, I did try message Daniel on here but not had a response. Will check out the thread though ta.

 

[Bluebeard]

Ph1 172 driveshafts are needed. (Unless you fit a gripper then you’ll need the shorter one to be shortened by 25mm)

I have a williams ARB so can’t help there sorry.

I have a standard valver rear end. But on my Kangoo van I fitted 182 rear hubs simply by drilling/tapping the holes out. And they share loads of parts with the Mk1 so I’d take an educated guess that will work.

I don’t run a roll centre kit so can’t help there either

Sorry for not replying to the PM. X

 

[GasManLS7]

OK thanks mate, I think driveshafts might be the biggest issue then as the gearbox I'm using has a gripper diff. Do you know where to get the driveshafts shortened?

 

[GasManLS7]

Ph1 172 driveshafts are needed. (Unless you fit a gripper then you’ll need the shorter one to be shortened by 25mm)

I have a williams ARB so can’t help there sorry.

I have a standard valver rear end. But on my Kangoo van I fitted 182 rear hubs simply by drilling/tapping the holes out. And they share loads of parts with the Mk1 so I’d take an educated guess that will work.

I don’t run a roll centre kit so can’t help there either

Sorry for not replying to the PM. X

Also is the valver subframe narrower then? Just wondering why other shafts wont fit

 

[GasManLS7]

Ph1 172 driveshafts are needed. (Unless you fit a gripper then you’ll need the shorter one to be shortened by 25mm)

I have a williams ARB so can’t help there sorry.

I have a standard valver rear end. But on my Kangoo van I fitted 182 rear hubs simply by drilling/tapping the holes out. And they share loads of parts with the Mk1 so I’d take an educated guess that will work.

I don’t run a roll centre kit so can’t help there either

Sorry for not replying to the PM. X

I've just thought will the phase 1 driveshafts fit into Cup hubs?

 

[Daz...]

I've just thought will the phase 1 driveshafts fit into Cup hubs?

Yes, Cup hubs just have a larger bearing and obviously the 60mm bolt spacing.

 

[Bluebeard]

I've just thought will the phase 1 driveshafts fit into Cup hubs?

Yes.

 

[Bluebeard]

Also is the valver subframe narrower then? Just wondering why other shafts wont fit

I have a williams subframe. But I think (was a long time ago!) they’re just stronger and the same size as valver.

Other shafts do fit, but they knock on hard cornering as they bottom out inside the gearbox.

 

[GasManLS7]

OK thanks. I have these driveshafts in my garage. Can you tell if any are the shorter 172 ones by looking? Is the other side the same on all?

 

[16v_paddy]

Also is the valver subframe narrower then? Just wondering why other shafts wont fit

All Mk1 subframes are identical in size & shape, it's just the Williams ones that have some extra bits welded onto it for extra strength.

The Mk2 is a wider car so the shaft lengths that will fit on a Mk1 is affected by that difference - I can't remember the difference (I've got it written down somewhere) but the Mk2 shell is something like 45mm wider in-between the the strut tops so on a Mk1, the Mk2 hubs are going to be more tucked in towards the middle of the car than they would be when on a Mk2.

The 182 ARB fits on the Mk1 subframe the exact same way it does as standard, the clamps for the bushes are the exact same part on both Mk1 and Mk2's
This thread has some useful info on it despite some inaccuracies https://cliosport.net/threads/172-widetrack-on-a-mk1-valver-williams-etc.439455/ and his main thread is here https://cliosport.net/threads/mk1-f...ect-year-3-engine-and-chassis-rebuild.364502/

 

[GasManLS7]

All Mk1 subframes are identical in size & shape, it's just the Williams ones that have some extra bits welded onto it for extra strength.

The Mk2 is a wider car so the shaft lengths that will fit on a Mk1 is affected by that difference - I can't remember the difference (I've got it written down somewhere) but the Mk2 shell is something like 45mm wider in-between the the strut tops so on a Mk1, the Mk2 hubs are going to be more tucked in towards the middle of the car than they would be when on a Mk2.

The 182 ARB fits on the Mk1 subframe the exact same way it does as standard, the clamps for the bushes are the exact same part on both Mk1 and Mk2's
This thread has some useful info on it despite some inaccuracies https://cliosport.net/threads/172-widetrack-on-a-mk1-valver-williams-etc.439455/ and his main thread is here https://cliosport.net/threads/mk1-f...ect-year-3-engine-and-chassis-rebuild.364502/

Thanks mate, when you say the hubs are further in where does the wider track come from?

 

[16v_paddy]

Thanks mate, when you say the hubs are further in where does the wider track come from?

It's complicated because of the other bits needed to make it all work together but the simplest explanation is

From Valver to Williams, the track is widened by wider wishbones - all the other stuff like shafts etc is just what's needed to make those work

The 1*2 wishbones are the exact same width as the Williams ones, it's the Mk2 hubs that are different, it's the thickness & the offset of the hub flange that adds a tiny bit more width compared to the Williams track

The Mk1 is a narrower car than the Mk2 so a Mk1 with all Mk2 bits on it, won't have the same track width as a Mk2. That's the limit of how wide you can go on a Mk1 before you end up in the craziness of the Maxi setup

 

[GasManLS7]

OK I think I have most of the bits I need apart from the shorter driveshafts and possibly a williams rack. The car currently has a manual valver rack but I've been told this won't allow the track rod ends to reach the hubs. Also wondering which rack would work with the 182 manifold and ARB

 

[Bluebeard]

I have the standard valver rack in mine. (With power steering looped off)
If my memory serves, I fitted Williams track rod ends. Or maybe R19 16v ones?? I can’t remember. But I’ve 100% got a standard valver rack in mine.

 

[GasManLS7]

Ah maybe it will fit then. The Bridgecraft hubs have their own track rods is the only thing. And also in not sure about clearance between the 182 manifold and 182 ARB?

 

[16v_paddy]

I have the standard valver rack in mine. (With power steering looped off)
If my memory serves, I fitted Williams track rod ends. Or maybe R19 16v ones?? I can’t remember. But I’ve 100% got a standard valver rack in mine.

The Williams rack is the same as the Valver, the Williams just uses the track rods & ends from the Ph1 Valver which are female inners & male outers. It's the ph2 ones that don't work safely on a widetrack

OK I think I have most of the bits I need apart from the shorter driveshafts and possibly a williams rack. The car currently has a manual valver rack but I've been told this won't allow the track rod ends to reach the hubs. Also wondering which rack would work with the 182 manifold and ARB

Your rack will either be a normal Williams/Valver power steering rack that's had the pipes blanked off to make it manual or it's a manual rack from a lower spec Mk1 with more turns lock to lock. You wont have any issues with the rack/manifold/ARB clearances, you can't fit a Williams ARB if you're using an F4 manifold and you can't use a 1*2 ARB is you're running an F7 manifold as the exhaust fouls the ARB with the wrong combination.

You'll need to be careful with the Bridgecraft track rods and what inner track rods you use as I'm assuming the Bridgecraft ones are for a male 1*2 inner track rod which are a different size thread to the Mk1 rack iirc.
In fact this might be a massive ballache because I know it's an absolute t**t just to get the right inners & outers for a 1*2 as there's 3 different inners and 3 different outers to choose from that vary in length & thread sizes.

What are the specs of the Bridgecraft track rod ends? I'm just blindly guessing what might & might not fit/work without knowing that tbh

Now I'm gonna be a right prick & throw a spanner in the works to confuse things even further 😝
You can fit a steering rack from a Mk2 Clio that has EPAS (I've just fitted 1 to my Valver) it's basically a manual rack that has less turns than a Mk1 manual rack. There's 2 versions, 1 has 2.5 turns lock to lock and the other is about 3.25 and the Valver/Williams inner track rods fit them both

 

[GasManLS7]

Cheers mate, the bridgecraft kit only has 1 type of track rod end that fits all mk2s as far as I know. It looks like this:

Do you know which mk2 epas rack has the fewer amount of turns? It seams like that would be the best route forward.

 

[16v_paddy]

Cheers mate, the bridgecraft kit only has 1 type of track rod end that fits all mk2s as far as I know. It looks like this:

View attachment 1694066

Do you know which mk2 epas rack has the fewer amount of turns? It seams like that would be the best route forward.

This is the fewest turns 7700437054 and the other is 7700437055 - they're from the DCi's and 1.2's as far as I know - you have to use the standard Valver power steering column with them though hence what I was saying about if yours has a normal power steering rack blanked off or an actual manual rack because you have to use a different steering column on a manual rack

 

[GasManLS7]

Ah yeah I get it, I'll take another look at the track tomorrow when I'm in the workshop. Will try find a dci rack in the meantime thanks

 

[GasManLS7]

This is the fewest turns 7700437054 and the other is 7700437055 - they're from the DCi's and 1.2's as far as I know - you have to use the standard Valver power steering column with them though hence what I was saying about if yours has a normal power steering rack blanked off or an actual manual rack because you have to use a different steering column on a manual rack

Do you have the part number for the shorter driveshafts too? Is it both sides that have a shorter version?

 

[16v_paddy]

Do you have the part number for the shorter driveshafts too? Is it both sides that have a shorter version?

I can't really help with that one tbh, all I know is that it has to be Ph1 172 shafts to do the conversion but I have no idea what the measurements are

As for using the Bridgecraft track rod ends, I've been looking up the specs of stuff from a Moog parts catalogue and I'm making some assumptions that what I've found is right:
The thread size of the Bridgecraft rod ends is M14x1.5
The thread size of the Valver and the 2 EPAS racks is M12x1
There's 7 different inner track rods for Mk2 Clio's and only 4 of them have the correct size thread to fit into the Valver/EPAS racks - the others have M14 & M16
Of those 4, 2 of them are 256mm long, 1 is 317mm and 1 is 318mm
There is also an inner tie rod from the Mk1 ph2 Valver that are the correct thread sizes and 245mm long

Short version of all that crap is that you'll have to fit whatever rack you go with onto the car along with the shocks & hubs with the Bridgecraft bits on it then measure the distance from the rack to the rod end to figure out what inner track rods you'll need to fit

 

[GasManLS7]

Cheers mate, yeah I think I'll need to fit it all and take some measurements. I have a P reg valver so I'm guessing that's the Facelift? If so it would be great to use that rack if possible. Ta for an your help mate.

 

[GasManLS7]

Meant to say ph2 not Facelift

 

[16v_paddy]

Cheers mate, yeah I think I'll need to fit it all and take some measurements. I have a P reg valver so I'm guessing that's the Facelift? If so it would be great to use that rack if possible. Ta for an your help mate.

Yeah, being a ph2 it should have the male 245mm inner track rod on it so should be a decent reference point for measuring from

 

[GasManLS7]

Anyone tried running it without a front ARB? I'm guessing it would still be a lot better than standard. The car will be fully stripped with fibreglass doors etc so won't weigh much, I'm not sure how much of a difference an arb would make to the lap times?

Also what's a fully stripped out valver with cage, fibreglass doors, poly carb windows etc expected to weigh? What's the lightest one on here?

 

[Krarl]

@Coops Mk1 is a good person to comment on this too

 

[pepinosport]

IDK if it will help, but my setup was as follows:

- 182 cup springs on williams dampers
- clio 2 1.9d shafts
- 172 knuckles with 16v hubs and machined to fit williams dampers
- 172 control arms
- 19 16v ARB cut to fit clio width
- Express extra load rear torsion bars

The 182 cup springs were a bit too stiff for the car.

 

[GasManLS7]

Cheers mate, that does help although I've got more questions than answers 😂

Are the 1.9d driveshafts shorter than 1*2 ones? Do you use a jc5 box?
Did you ever try the 1*2 ARB or no ARB?
What's the express extra load rear torsion bar and how's it compare to normal?

 

[Coops Mk1]

I run full 172 front setup with phase 1 172 shafts, cup jc5 129 box with quiafe diff so shafts are stock length but have to be early car, 172 cup, phase 2 or 182 when the two piece came in all too long.

I run 172 front drive assemblies with 2mm off the upright to allow for Williams coilovers (KW V2 in my case) then 182 Trophy ARB with 5mm ish cut off each end, with F4R engine and 182 manifold. If you're running f7 engine and exhaust you'll need a Williams arb.

Rack is a standard Williams power rack with the hydraulics removed, phase 1 172 inner track rods and then a bridgecraft roll and bump kit

 

[Coops Mk1]

Oh and pms spherical bearing/strengthened later spec with the extra caster lower arms

 

[Coops Mk1]

My rear is stock MK1 as never felt the need to change it, just with 10mm hubcentric spacers per side and a custom fitment white line rear arb which frankly don't think really does much

 

[GasManLS7]

Cheers @Coops Mk1 do you know of any issues with running the 182 cup front end? The bits I have are:

182 Cup AST 5100
Cup hubs with bridgecraft kit
Cup lower arms
Cup ARB, valver ARB or no ARB
Valver manifold or can adapt 182 manifold to fit valver head
Ph2 Valver rack or DCi/1.2 Rack
182 Cup driveshafts (looking at potentially having 1 or both shortened if needed)
JC5 dogbox with gripper diff

Anything I've not thought of there?

 

[Coops Mk1]

60mm stuff should be fine, may need ast top mounts for the shocks. Driveshafts will be too long so you'll need to do something with those, no idea what as I very deliberately avoided having to mod them where possible to keep components standard

With valver manifold and downpipe you'll want a Williams arb, which I think I did have one, I'll rummage in the shed in a bit

 

[GasManLS7]

Cheers mate! Do you know which rack will work with the Bridgecraft track rod ends?

 

[Coops Mk1]

Yeah as said, mines a 16v/ Williams original power rack with the hydraulics removed, I then fitted 172 phase 1/MK2 dci inner tie rods and they work with the bridgecraft kit I have installed perfectly

 

[GasManLS7]

Sweet mate cheers, any reason you didn't just use the full 172/dci rack or would that not have worked?

 

[Coops Mk1]

Never really checked, the rack was already on the car and fine, I just bought new inner rods as wanted to do them anyway and after some research found out the 172 phase 1 were all male so 100% would fit the bump steer kit and they are slightly longer so would have plenty of thread on them too with the wider track

 

[GasManLS7]

OK this is the rack that came on the car, it's a fully manual rack. I also have a DCI rack 7700437054 so could swap inner rods if needed. Or ditch this and just the the DCI rack?