182 doesn't start first time, but will second time

[DickP]

Hi all,

My Clio 182 has just developed a fault in the past few weeks of not always starting first thing in the morning after having been parked up over night. It will splutter briefly into life and then stall, but is guaranteed to start up fine on the second attempt.

Having done some reading, it seems to suggest that the TDC sensor may be a culprit. Is this right? Are there any other easy checks to make?

Thanks!

 

[Brendan2234]

I'm no expert but a failed camshaft sensor can be responsible for a 'stumbling' start which sounds like what you're experiencing. If the PCM doesn't see a camshaft signal, as you say it won't have any feedback as to where the TDC on the compression stroke, so compensates by injecting fuel at every TDC event while cranking until the engine is running and spinning fast enough for it to use the crankshaft sensor, from then on it will run as normal.

If you've any facility to plug into the OBDII port and read the fault codes I'd expect to see one relating to the camshaft sensor, but to properly diagnose the fault you would have to get the sensor output scoped by a decent garage or mechanic to prove it's at fault. I've had all sorts of trouble with Renault wiring (my Vivaro van is basically a Trafic) where I've nearly condemned a sensor but have then found the sensor wiring, although looking fine on the outside, is corroded enough it can't carry any meaningful current!

 

[bloke]

I'm no expert but a failed camshaft sensor can be responsible for a 'stumbling' start which sounds like what you're experiencing. If the PCM doesn't see a camshaft signal, as you say it won't have any feedback as to where the TDC on the compression stroke, so compensates by injecting fuel at every TDC event while cranking until the engine is running and spinning fast enough for it to use the crankshaft sensor, from then on it will run as normal.

If you've any facility to plug into the OBDII port and read the fault codes I'd expect to see one relating to the camshaft sensor, but to properly diagnose the fault you would have to get the sensor output scoped by a decent garage or mechanic to prove it's at fault. I've had all sorts of trouble with Renault wiring (my Vivaro van is basically a Trafic) where I've nearly condemned a sensor but have then found the sensor wiring, although looking fine on the outside, is corroded enough it can't carry any meaningful current!

they don't have a cam sensor.

 

[Lozza-p]

My old one used to do that, I just used to leave the ignition on for a few seconds before starting and it was normally fine. never really bothered me to be fair

 

[aucky]

Fuel pressure regulator iirc. Happens to all of them with age.

Turn the key half way, then off, then on full to give the fuel line an extra prime. See if that works.

 

[STEVE.M]

Fuel pressure regulator iirc. Happens to all of them with age.

Turn the key half way, then off, then on full to give the fuel line an extra prime. See if that works.

I think you are on the right track, but no pressure regulator is fitted.

Injector leak down seems a likely cause.

 

[DrR]

Do you just put they key in then turn it right round to start?

Or put key in, turn ignition on, brief pause then start it?

If you do the first both the clios I had started a bit crap.

 

[aucky]

I think you are on the right track, but no pressure regulator is fitted.

Injector leak down seems a likely cause.

The *device* sits in the tank I believe.

The line pressure leaks backwards.

 

[hipwell]

The *device* sits in the tank I believe.

The line pressure leaks backwards.

Wouldn't that be caused by a leaking injector seal not holding vacuum at it's end of the fuel line?

 

[DickP]

Thanks for the help guys.

If it makes any difference I've found ignition on, off and back on seems to mean first time crank it will start?

 

[STEVE.M]

Thanks for the help guys.

If it makes any difference I've found ignition on, off and back on seems to mean first time crank it will start

That`s not too painfull, is it?

I have injector replacement scheduled for next March, will let you know if it cures it.

Had to laugh at vacuum in the fuel line though.

 

[DickP]

How painful it is depends if it develops to not starting at all I would say!

I'll try cleaning the tdc sensor first and see what happens. Any more thoughts welcome and thanks all for the replies!

 

[Mark.cup1]

Bad earth on rear lights caused a very similar issue on my car was a total fluke that I did something about it and it cured my issue!

 

[DickP]

Hi,

A little more development on the non-start on first attempt. If I just turn ignition on and off and back on again it starts on first crank no problems. What would this suggest? Immobiliser issues??

 

[Christopher]

Sounds like a fuelling issue. Like it's not priming first time but enough on the second time.

 

[Mark.cup1]

I may be wrong but I've already said my car did this for about 6 months if I turned the ignition not all the way and let the service light go out then turned it off and straight back on it would start perfectly....

A few times when in a rush I forgot this little ritual and the car broke down and I had to unplug something under the bonnet before I could go on my way

 

[DickP]

Strangely now in the really warm weather, it starts without fault. If anything, the hotter the car is the better it starts without having ran all day???!

How does the cold start / automatic choke work on these? Wondering if it's intermittently not working?

 

[Balders172]

having the exact same problem as above

 

[c4pob]

My old 172 did this. Always started 2nd time so never saw it as an issue, more a quirk. Would always start 1st time if it was warm though.

Good luck diagnosing.

 

[Balders172]

just a thought, my outside temp sensor is way off. Would these be linked? I know some volvo's suffer from a similar issue whereby it would either dump a load of fuel or starve itself of fuel if the outside temperature sensor was faulty.

 

[Sparkyp23]

Mine has developed the same problem recently
First turn of key struggles to start like there's no fuel
2nd attempt fires up no problem but When driving first thing in morning it drives very hesitant and lumpy for a little while then it's fine, not sure why.

 

[Balders172]

exact same as me sparky, no lights on the dash... so far replaced the coilpack, leads, plugs, both cat and pre cat sensors and cts.

 

[H182]

Mine does this. Only started doing it after I had the injectors out to swap one. I'm fairly confident its pressure with loose seals as someone mentioned. One of them seemed rather loose compared to the others when removing them. Haven't got round to changing it yet. I just apply a little throttle when cranking and it starts.

 

[loggyboy]

Mine did this and TDC solved but came back and traced it to a dodgy part of loom to TDC.

 

[HarvB]

just a thought, my outside temp sensor is way off. Would these be linked? I know some volvo's suffer from a similar issue whereby it would either dump a load of fuel or starve itself of fuel if the outside temperature sensor was faulty.

Pretty rare - most outside air temp readings aren't fed into the fuel injection system, that'll use an inlet air temp sensor (as it's often much hotter under the bonnet), and you need accurate temps to help with the calculations.

In this case it either sounds like the camshaft sensor or fuel pressure issues. If you turn the key to 2nd position and leave it for a minute does it carry on priming for ages? You'll hear the fuel pump whirring away until it reaches full pressure, more than about a second of pumping and it'd point to a fuel pressure issue.

 

[Balders172]

Pretty rare - most outside air temp readings aren't fed into the fuel injection system, that'll use an inlet air temp sensor (as it's often much hotter under the bonnet), and you need accurate temps to help with the calculations.

In this case it either sounds like the camshaft sensor or fuel pressure issues. If you turn the key to 2nd position and leave it for a minute does it carry on priming for ages? You'll hear the fuel pump whirring away until it reaches full pressure, more than about a second of pumping and it'd point to a fuel pressure issue.

Camshaft sensor was next on my list, No stops priming after a couple of seconds.

 

[hipwell]

Camshaft sensor was next on my list, No stops priming after a couple of seconds.

Pretty sure these don't have a camshaft sensor. Just tdc

 

[Gc8]

My 182 started to do the same a month or so ago as well.. Starts on second try and runs great afterwards.. Only work I have had done recently is a new primary lambda sensor..

 

[andy335touring]

My 172 is the same, any idea how much a genuine fuel pump assembly* would be ?

*including the FPR ?*

 

[Sparkyp23]

Mine was running crap from cold and started 2nd time, felt like if you were towing something heavy or running out of fuel, very lethargic untill warmed up
however I was using v power from shell at the time, but I put normal 95 Ron in it and the starting issue has been fine 1st time
IV read 182 and 197 clios are very lumpy from cold as standard but not 100% sure if it's maybe camshaft related somehow.

 

[bloke]

My 172 is the same, any idea how much a genuine fuel pump assembly* would be ?

*including the FPR ?*

rough guess nudging £300. you can replace just the pump itself.

 

[STEVE.M]

Mine was running crap from cold and started 2nd time, felt like if you were towing something heavy or running out of fuel, very lethargic untill warmed up
however I was using v power from shell at the time, but I put normal 95 Ron in it and the starting issue has been fine 1st time
IV read 182 and 197 clios are very lumpy from cold as standard but not 100% sure if it's maybe camshaft related somehow.

Clueless to expert in 24 hours.

http://www.cliosport.net/threads/coilovers-and-stiff-steering.809815/#post-11436513

Give me strength.

 

[Sparkyp23]

Sorry Steve M do you have a problem?
What's with your confrontational attitude? that post you never had to write at all there regarding me, so what's your issue?

 

[andy335touring]

rough guess nudging £300. you can replace just the pump itself.

Is the FPR built into the pump ?

Do you need any special tools to change the pump, i.e. the fuel lines have crimped on connections or just hose clips ?

Thanks for your help.

 

[bloke]

Is the FPR built into the pump ?

Do you need any special tools to change the pump, i.e. the fuel lines have crimped on connections or just hose clips ?

Thanks for your help.

fpr is in the sender unit/mount. pump is straightforward to change, just get a bit of fuel line to replace the hard plastic pipe.

 

[DickP]

Good evening,

So are we saying it's a pressure issue and is most likely the fuel pump?

I can't say I have noticed mine priming for any longer than it did when I first got the car.

 

[STEVE.M]

https://www.cliosport.net/threads/clio-wont-start-first-time-but-second-time-is-always-fine.750709/

https://www.cliosport.net/threads/172-won’t-start-first-time.74883/

I thought I would link these 3 threads, as they are all on the same subject.

I replaced my battery at the end of December, and since then, my car now starts 1st time every time, hot or cold.

This was the solution in the 2003 thread, where Renault replaced a battery under warranty to cure exactly this problem.

Hope this helps people not to read more into this common problem, when the fix is so simple.

 

[SWL16]

I had this issue for 6months or so, then a fuel injector failed. New set of injectors. Never had the problem again.

 

[loggyboy]

Sadly with these cars there can be multiple faults leading to identical symptoms. So no one fix for all.

 

[STEVE.M]

I had this issue for 6months or so, then a fuel injector failed. New set of injectors. Never had the problem again.

Thanks for that info.
A new set of injectors is on my to do list for this year, as I know that one day soon they will likely start to fail, but in this instance a battery cured the problem, which was an unintentional bonus.
The old battery never actually let me down, but the tell tale signs of the trip computer resetting itself on cold morning starts was present.
I did suggest injector leak down back in post 6 of this thread.