197 on throttle bodies

[mbarnes]

Ok, i know GDi have a kit, but i was asking loads of questions on ben's loom thread, so thought i would start my own instead.

If i want to go for throttle bodies on my 197 what should i be looking at?

i was going to go for 45mm jenvey SF's, but i know of other people running 50mm on 2.0litre engines. Any benefit in this?

Secondly, DBW or not?

Is there a real benefit in keeping DBW if i was putting bodies on it? would it be easier to switch to cable or keep DBW?

What ECu would people recommend, alot of friends rate DTA but i know omex seems a winner too.

Finally, induction length?
on a 2.0litre is there an ideal induction length or does it depend how i want the torque curve? would ideally like the bodies pointing directly forward, following the angle of the ports, but not sure what length that could get me, dont mind dropping the rad down / modifying slam panel etc.

Any tips, links, advise etc would be great.

Would be handy to come up with a shopping list lol.

if money were no object, i would run this without any internal work first, to see the power, but i think it will be better to do everything in one go. Can you buy lighter pistons etc for the 197 engine yet? what spec are the R3 ones? would like some decent cams in the setup too, so doing the lot would make sense.

 

[Icarus]

Decide on a power requirement then decide on what you need to achieve this.

Or are you wanting them purely for show as per the VTS boys? ;-)

Cheers
M

 

[ben_p]

Short answers beacuse im on my iphone

50mm seems too big, I run 48s but think people use 45s

OMEX as it comes with a loom! - Easy

 

[Fred@BTM]

if you want DBW still then you won't be using an OMEX, DTA S80/S100 is where you should be looking

again if you're wanting to keep the DBW, think of a price and then add £2K

 

[mbarnes]

cheers guys.

Icarus, i would like about 240bhp. That should be achievable from tb's cams etc shouldnt it?

DBW, non DBW, to be honest, i dont know the benefits of one over the other. If its better to do one for the price i would consider it, but as yet i dont know enough about it.

not sure omex make a loom for the 197, a mate makes looms so either way i could get something, but an off the shelf would probably be cheaper.

 

[mbarnes]

also, icarus i dont play with the vts boys lol. although there are a few of them running 200bhp on bodies, so i would hope 250bhp with a similar spec could be done as thats same bhp/litre.

spec wise that would be:

Sf's
manifold, exhaust,
cams, pistons and rods.

Obviously if i am dreaming or anything please do tell me.

 

[Fred@BTM]

you got £5-£7K to chuck at it?

 

[Mark One]

as above. I've got my doubts that 250 could be done on a realistic budget. It's a glorified 1*2 engine after all. so I wouldnt push your expectations further than 235bhp or thereabouts without REAL wonga to throw at it.

 

[mbarnes]

boo. A 2litre engine i cant get much more out of than a 1.6. Gay lol.

 

[mbarnes]

thinking about it. The r3 gets 230bhp still on single body from cams and pistons exhaust and filter. So 250 gotta be in there.

 

[leeds_182]

250bhp will probably cost big bucks I would have thought.

But then again, I dont know much.

 

[MistaT]

Do it!

I had 198bhp last run on my bodied vts btw Remember you from back in the day...

A 197 on bodies would be awesome! Speak to GDI, they have been doing the development work from what i can remember.

 

[mbarnes]

thats what i mean mista, 200bhp from a saxo 1.6 and you know the sort of costs involved in that. surely with that money put into a 2.0litre 250ish should be doable. Bic's new 2.0litre engine must have cost around 8k and thats 270bhp.

they sure have, but they still dont have anything to sell yet lol, and i quite like the idea of doing it myself although quite how realistic that is i dont know.

their kit looks good, but its a bolt on kit, whereas i dont mind moving a few things round in my engine bay to get some straighter induction lengths etc

 

[Icarus]

What engine life do you want/would you expect.

Renault are releasing a 250bhp upgrade kit shortly for the X85 and C85 so personaly I'd wait for that then utilise all of it bar the SRT management and spec some engine control more suited to a road car application. That way you get an engine package thats passed durability and testing and has a proper rated engine life on it.

You can have 230bhp the same way at the moment and on the standard inlet manifold.

The real advantage of DBW is being able to control the inducted air mass without throttle input from the driver. This allows for very accurate torque reduction which allows for very effective TCS and LCS (without the need to misfire or r****d spark for torque reduction) and very soft rev limiters. It also allows you to optimise throttle position (or rather inducted air mass) for response - which is nice.

To give you some idea of where 2 litre 4 pots are at currently in motorsport the WTCC and BTCC engines are making over 280bhp (some near to 300bhp) from 64mm single throttle bodies and 11mm of valve lift!

Cheers
M

 

[MAXIBOY]

To give you some idea of where 2 litre 4 pots are at currently in motorsport the WTCC and BTCC engines are making over 280bhp (some near to 300bhp) from 64mm single throttle bodies and 11mm of valve lift!

Cheers
M

bet there's not 100,000 mile warranty on those though..

 

[Fred@BTM]

was gonna say, the duratec's are doing upto 300bhp NA these days with 50mm+ TB's (and other s**t obviously)

 

[willcrook]

was gonna say, the duratec's are doing upto 300bhp NA these days with 50mm+ TB's (and other s**t obviously)

It's late : ]

 

[Fred@BTM]

matt the boy wonder is still alive though

Renault 4 clyinder, iron block, ali head - max output so far about 300bhp

Mitsubishi 4 clyinder, iron block, ali head - max output so far over 1000bhp

not a dissimilar engine in terms of dimensions either

 

[Icarus]

Le French have done 800bhp with an F4R in a rally cross application and the Sweeds/Fins have a big one in build at the moment.

The power is available. The demand to develop for it is minimal.

Maxiboy - you'd be amazed at the reliability to be honest. Only allowed 4 engines per season for a start!

Cheers
M

 

[Andy GDI]

Induction length is critical on this engine.

there is also more to it than just pure length, the inlets like a baffle plate on the std engine

we did some exhaustive inlet length testing on the 197 to ascertain the best induction length, hence why its got the up and over inlet runners.

if you ran straight inlets you COULD NOT get the inlet length needed to get the power and torque needed for that engine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jb58uaySVug

the std cams are also the limiting factor for PEAK numbers but the ITB's make a massive mid-top range difference (gains of 33 lb ft recorded)

 

[Andy GDI]

The video was during testing with the front of the car off for ease of length change

 

[mbarnes]

cheers guys.

interesting to hear a 250bhp kit is coming out. that might be a tempting option for me!

andy, how did you find the straight forward bodies on that run? any indication of what power it got with that setup?

icarus, what sort of road/track reliability would a 250 engine get? would be more road than track i imagine.

also, would Renault Sport be the best bet for parts like pistons and cams, or are there alternative aftermarket options. i know about cat cams, was just wondering about pistons, wossner? omega etc?

 

[Andy GDI]

i have no idea what the power was on that run.

needless to say even that length did not fit being the front of the car.

 

[BenR]

matt the boy wonder is still alive though

Renault 4 clyinder, iron block, ali head - max output so far about 300bhp

Mitsubishi 4 clyinder, iron block, ali head - max output so far over 1000bhp

not a dissimilar engine in terms of dimensions either

3-4mm larger intake valves

3-4mm larger bore

stroker kits

massive ports

Yea, pretty similar lol.

 

[mark1989]

love these itb threads the more info on these the beta, i realy cant wait for these to be readily available

 

[mbarnes]

yeah, will be interesting to see some kits etc come out.

icarus, btw where can i find out more about the 250bhp package? will it be available as parts, or just a full engine?

checked on renault-sport.com but couldnt see anything useful.

 

[Fred@BTM]

3-4mm larger intake valves

3-4mm larger bore

stroker kits

massive ports

Yea, pretty similar lol.

my point being gay boy, it could be done :rasp:

 

[scandezz]

yea, i cant find anything about the 250bhp package too *confused*

 

[skiptontweed]

thinking about it. The r3 gets 230bhp still on single body from cams and pistons exhaust and filter. So 250 gotta be in there.

Feel a bit daft asking this. Whats an R3?

 

[Steve]

So whats the possibility of a RS250???

 

[sideways danny]

yea, i cant find anything about the 250bhp package too *confused*

edit. ah, racecar package. dont hold your breath for public availability

 

[kevo66]

edit. ah, racecar package. dont hold your breath for public availability

Depends who you know

Hows the S/C del coming on mate?? Not heard much!

 

[Icarus]

edit. ah, racecar package. dont hold your breath for public availability

Everything in the R-Sport catalogue is available to anyone with the funds to pay for it.... RST aren't going to sit there and refuse to sell parts to people.... parts that they have a good margin on and that support future RST development programs. If you want you can order all the bits to turn a road car into an R3 or X85.

230bhp engine package is available now from R-Sport in the UK. 250bhp engine package is doing dyno work at Oreca at the moment and is pencilled for an October release ready for Winter testing. Both use the MM SRT ECU and have a spec loom.

Cheers
M

 

[mbarnes]

still deciding whether to do stuff to the 197 or buy an S2 exige sc lol, just cant decide

 

[LouisQ]

Exige!

 

[scandezz]

Exige is good..!

 

[Fletcher]

Exige

 

[deltav]

im afraid to say you wont get anywhere near the peak figures your looking for with just itb's. as andy says the midrange figures where very good but peak figures where only up around 10bhp over standard. this was with a very extensivly developed up and over design, if your looking to to run a short set in front the engine then it will make less power than standard! totally kills it dead!

the airbox ect also has a profound effect on tourque figures. tbh if your going to try and make a set yourself from off the shelf parts id say you are going to really really struggle! although we have done a prototype set which was very successfull one of the main reasons we havnt pushed to get it to market at the moment is the shear complexity of the parts required to make a bolt on kit. and its just a bit of a pain to sort out. might get round to it one day when we have time to breath but just crazy busy with about a dozen other projects at the moment

 

[mbarnes]

So what's the difference between the 197 engine and 182 engine that means people like longmans can get 220bhp out of the 182 engine on bodies with internal work but no one seems to think it can be done in the 197 for similar money?

Exige may still be first choice LOL. Not decided yet. Also been looking at as coilovers for the Clio so who knows what I will buy ha ha

 

[sideways danny]

So what's the difference between the 197 engine and 182 engine that means people like longmans can get 220bhp out of the 182 engine on bodies with internal work but no one seems to think it can be done in the 197 for similar money?

Exige may still be first choice LOL. Not decided yet. Also been looking at as coilovers for the Clio so who knows what I will buy ha ha

We've had 240 on a mk2 clio (172 cup in this case) with extensive internal work. That's not in question. These ITBs have only been fitted to a stock engine