ARP rod bolts upgrade

[Struggler]

I'm pretty sure im going to drop the sump on my track build but I've already put the head back on so cant disassemble the block completely. There is also nothing wrong with the block or bottom end bearings (i dont think) which is why i initially didnt plan on openning it up at all. But if the sump is coming off for cleaning and inspection I'm wondering if it's worth putting in some ARP rod bolts for good measure.

My question is, Is it possible (or advisable) to upgrade the rod bolts without disassembling the crank? Or would it be worth changing the bottom end bearings anyway? If even possible without removing the rods.

 

[MAXRUNDOWN]

Yes you can do the rod bolts with the engine in situ, it is possible to change the rod bearings at the same time.

 

[Struggler]

Exactly what I wanted to hear.

Is it advisable to change the rod bearing for good measure? There was nothing noticeably wrong with them last time the engine ran... 13 years ago

 

[Mr Trailer Man]

Exactly what I wanted to hear.

Is it advisable to change the rod bearing for good measure? There was nothing noticeably wrong with them last time the engine ran... 13 years ago

I'd just check for wear when you take the caps off, then go from there.

 

[MAXRUNDOWN]

Personally, for what they cost I don't see why you wouldn't while you've got the sump and windage tray off. At least pull the caps off the rods and inspect them

 

[PerthRS]

Got the larger diesel pump and ARP rod bolts waiting in the wind. Might be worthwhile changing out the bearings now when I think about it....

 

[Struggler]

Ok sounds good, I will have an inspect of the bearings. To be honest opening up the block is all a bit new to me hence the questions, but it sounds like it should be straight forward enough.

What is the bigger diesel pump? A worthwhile upgrade?

 

[PerthRS]

From what i've read. Allegedly it resolves the shite oil pressure the f4r is know for at low rpm. Pretty much matches operating rpm pressure. As oil pressure relief valve seems to be the same.
Nick from PMS said he uses it on all comp engines he builds.

Haven't heard anything negative/detrimental to say it's not worth the hassle.

 

[Struggler]

Interesting, do you have a part number or a model that it's from?

 

[Mertin]

Interesting about the oil pump as iv just had the engine on stand and sump off to do rod bolts, no.1 bearing cap reseal etc

 

[PerthRS]

Interesting, do you have a part number or a model that it's from?

Part number is 150108716R
Picture below (haven't pulled it out of the bag yet).

It is a physically larger unit. With the oil pickup tube being plastic. Rather than being part of the Alu casting (like the standard pump).
The pickup does reach a little further down. So the sumps internal strength webbing will need to be shaved down to accommodate.
Can see more pictures on PMS's listing: https://www.pure-motorsport.co.uk/larger-oil-pump-kit-clio-2-3-megane-2-3-rs.html

Interesting about the oil pump as iv just had the engine on stand and sump off to do rod bolts, no.1 bearing cap reseal etc

Oh nice. What sealant did you use to reseal the cap?
May add this to the to do list as well.

 

[Struggler]

Looks like the PMS kit has an extra little part to it. Does this mean you can't just order the pump from Renault? The cost difference between that and the PMS part is significant.

 

[Mertin]

Part number is 150108716R
Picture below (haven't pulled it out of the bag yet).

It is a physically larger unit. With the oil pickup tube being plastic. Rather than being part of the Alu casting (like the standard pump).
The pickup does reach a little further down. So the sumps internal strength webbing will need to be shaved down to accommodate.
Can see more pictures on PMS's listing: https://www.pure-motorsport.co.uk/larger-oil-pump-kit-clio-2-3-megane-2-3-rs.html

View attachment 1772217
View attachment 1772218

Oh nice. What sealant did you use to reseal the cap?
May add this to the to do list as well.

I used Loctite SI 5980, comes in a compressed tube like many of the others. Definately worth doing while 8n that deep, only problem is you will also have to disturb rear crank seal which can be a bugger to get it to seal properly

 

[Mertin]

Looks like the PMS kit has an extra little part to it. Does this mean you can't just order the pump from Renault? The cost difference between that and the PMS part is significant.

Looks like its the tab for supporting / locating the plastic tray. Frogjam's website mentions it

Fitting this pump does require modification to the sump pan - some areas need grinding away in order to achieve sufficient clearance for the oil pickup. Similarly you will need to fabricate and fit a small bracket in order to secure the plastic windage tray as this pump does not have the same locating tab near the oil pickup as the F4R oil pump. For this reason this alternative pump should only be fitted by an individual with sufficient skill and experience to perform such modification.

 

[PerthRS]

Looks like the PMS kit has an extra little part to it. Does this mean you can't just order the pump from Renault? The cost difference between that and the PMS part is significant.

Yeah, you can order the pump from elsewhere. Searching up the part number on google should bring up results.
Due to being in Aus, shipping costs are astronomical when things are individually purchased. So the pump was part of a larger bulk order from PMS.
Plus no faffing about needed to fabricate that windage tray bracket. As PMS includes it with the pump.

 

[PerthRS]

I used Loctite SI 5980, comes in a compressed tube like many of the others. Definately worth doing while 8n that deep, only problem is you will also have to disturb rear crank seal which can be a bugger to get it to seal properly

Ah sweet. Looks like I'll need to grab some of that. Along with loctite 518 for the cam cover.
This is turning into a typical case of scope creep 😅

 

[Mertin]

I may be wrong but I would just use the 5980 for the cam cover also

 

[MAXRUNDOWN]

I may be wrong but I would just use the 5980 for the cam cover also

Loctite 518 for the cam cover

Clio R3 maxi build Manual specifies DowSil 732 for No1 main cap, but Loctite 5980 is also suitable.

 

[Mertin]

Apologies, I looked it up after posting & 5980 isn't anerobic (non setting) so no use for cam cover & can't edit my post

 

[Struggler]

Ah sweet. Looks like I'll need to grab some of that. Along with loctite 518 for the cam cover.
This is turning into a typical case of scope creep 😅

Scope creep is a great term, and very appropriate.

Annoyingly my fabrication skills leave a lot to be desired, so may reach out to PMS and see if they'll sell me just the custom made bit, unfortunately if not I will just have to buy the whole kit.

Happy to go at my sump with a grinder at least...

Apologies, I looked it up after posting & 5980 isn't anerobic (non setting) so no use for cam cover & can't edit my post

This topic seems to come up a lot. James Stone did a youtube vid saying his preference is 5980 which many people (including myself) have followed. By spring I need to decide if I want to strip it all down and replace or risk it.

 

[PerthRS]

Scope creep is a great term, and very appropriate.

Annoyingly my fabrication skills leave a lot to be desired, so may reach out to PMS and see if they'll sell me just the custom made bit, unfortunately if not I will just have to buy the whole kit.

Happy to go at my sump with a grinder at least...



This topic seems to come up a lot. James Stone did a youtube vid saying his preference is 5980 which many people (including myself) have followed. By spring I need to decide if I want to strip it all down and replace or risk it.

In the defence of James Stone.
I gave the Renault's technical note document for F4x engine rebuilds (6027A). Found here if you want to give it a read: https://www.cliosport.net/threads/megane-f4r-engine-rebuild-manual.843901/post-12398261

In regards to the cam cover sealant. It weirdly doesn't give direction for the X65 (Clio II) F4R equipped Clios. But it does for the X85 (Clio III).
For the X85, it says to use 'resin adhesive' for the cam cover.
The only model were it specifies Loctite 518 is for the X74 (Laguna II).

After looking up the 'resin adhesive' on Renault's 'parts and consumables' document, 7711237640 comes up as the product used. Which seems to be silicone based.

But keep in mind there's a warning for both (which is fairly obvious):
'Applying excess sealant could cause it to be squeezed out when parts are tightened....blah blah....could damage certain components (engine)'.

So technically neither are incorrect (518 or 5980). But I'd assume 518 is the better option due to its anaerobic properties.

 

[Struggler]

I mean that offers a bit of reassurance.

Also, does anyone know if anyone on here made the little bit that adapts the larger oil pump?

 

[PerthRS]

If you're wanting to make your own.
Here are images and dimensions of the PMS supplied bracket.

 

[Struggler]

Fabrication is sadly not within my repetoir, I'm a humble pencil pusher by trade.

Would be amazing if someone on here wanted to put a few together wouldnt it!

 

[PerthRS]

Honestly. The steel construction of this bracket is pretty overkill. As it only holds the windage tray in place.

If someone could make an equivalent with 3d printing and uses a filament that is heat and oil resilient. Would be perfect.

 

[Mertin]

Im just attempting to fit the plastic windage tray following fitting the larger oil pump. The tray fouls on the oil pump before it even gets near the mounting lugs or hole.
Anyone else came across this issue? Iv contacted PMS to see if theres been a change in pump design or what the crack is. Frustrating after waiting all week for it

 

[PerthRS]

Im just attempting to fit the plastic windage tray following fitting the larger oil pump. The tray fouls on the oil pump before it even gets near the mounting lugs or hole.
Anyone else came across this issue? Iv contacted PMS to see if theres been a change in pump design or what the crack is. Frustrating after waiting all week for it

Interesting.
Think I saw your Facebook group post. After referring back to the PMS sample imagery. It seems your windage tray is slightly different

I've got a bare meg 3rs block with tray in the garage. Just did a mock up fit with the bigger pump. No issues lining it up and with no fouling. Retaining clip/provisions are the same as shown on PMS's website.
Dont know if the 182 tray is the same, as still yet to remove my sump.
Is it possible ph1 trays are different?

Here are images from the mock up test fit (supplied bracket not installed):

Seems like PMS sell the windage tray that matches the one in my photos and the one shown in the oil pump listing:

Genuine Renault Windage Tray Clio 2/3 RS Megane 2/3 RS 8200394655

Genuine Renault Windage Tray Clio 2/3 RS Megane 2/3 RS 8200394655

www.pure-motorsport.co.uk

 

[Struggler]

If the weather a bit better I'd go and get my sump off to confirm if its a ph1 thing.

Unfortuatley I've started renovating my hallway so clio will not be getting a lookin for a couple of months probably.

 

[Mertin]

Cheers for the reply, I modified it last night following a few others saying they had the same problem. I started to think Id ordered the wrong pump or something.
Nick also replied today and says it seems to be a lottery with the trays, some fit straight on and some need some fettling. Bottom end all built up now & sump back on finally. Now to take the top end to bits