Clio Cup, how many crashed ones

[TB1]

It seems a bit negative but im just wondering what Renault were thinking of when they produced this car and put it in a price range that many an inexperienced driver could afford

I see that some of the people on here have only a few years no claims (including some cup owners) and are 21 or under (which puts the question to everyone of how many will be crashed withing a few months )

I see accidents due to lack of knowledge about driving on roads, lift off oversteer and a powerful car without ABS, something that only experienced drivers normally can handle.

I want views to both sides of this, remembering that courses and trackdays can do nothing for you in the real driving world (ie it still takes time to implement courses and trackdays are a completely different form of driving)



Tony

 

[Frosty]

I think driving fast is all about assessing the situation in the first place. If its 12 midnight, no cars around, and you can see most of the way through the series of bends you are about to hammer it through, then youre probably gonna pull it off.

It doesnt take too much common sence however, to realise that when driving past a school at 8:45 in the morning, the same kind of driving is downright stupid. I tend to leave that to the Max Power heads.

If you constantly hammer it without a regard for anyone else using/crossing the road etc. then you are destined to mate your car with a lampost! Use some descression and you (and your car) will probably live to see another day.

Laurence (20 years old, no ABS, 172bhp, and quite a sensible outlook on driving)

 

[TB1]

Good point Laurence,

But speeding in town isnt just the problem, its the fact that these cars wernt aimed at young drivers IMHO but at a more experienced driver who wants the thrills of a stripped out car and the features that go with it (mainly for track days).

Your correct about assessing the situation though, but how far ahead are you actually assessing?

If your there saying to yourself that there isnt anything infront of me then your doing it wrong, what you should be saying is that there could be a bit of off camber in the road ahead or that there could be traffic queueing round the corner, just think what would happen if you go flying round it as the road ahead looked clear? second you brake the car will become unstable, releasing the brake and applying the gas will help you pull the car back in but as most young drivers now have access to a car that has ABS, the skill and the reaction of releasing the brake isnt natural in the first place.....

Keep them coming though!



Tony

 

[172Cup]

Mate,

I agree with you completely. Ive been driving 14 years, rallied, done Police ROSPA courses and crashed my 1st Impreza in 1997 which was a life changing experience.

Im now on my 6th Impreza, have an Elsie 160 and the Cup and I find the Cup quite an animal to drive with all that knowledge. 172 brake through the front wheels with no ABS is a recipe for disaster in the uninitiated hands (& feet). Even last night on a left-hand incline slip-road onto the A12 (A130 junction direction Colchester) the bl**dy thing lost traction when it hit 5K revs.

Driver aids are there to errrr,,, aid the driver!!!. Yes you can handle a car without them and yes, they will not save you if you stupidly overstep the mark.

I really like the Cup but (& because) it takes more concentration to drive fas than the Impreza and even the Elise, although 160 brake, rear wheels, 700 Kgs and wet roads are constantly a recipe for disaster, but you learn to adhere to the conditions otherwise,,,,, goodbye!!!!!!!

All in all, respect the car, respect the conditions, respect other road-users and you should be OK

172CUP

 

[RSTDL]

Im 26 and can handle it fine thankyou - 7 years no claims and no accicdents or convictions - had a blast with a new WRX this morning on a B road in the wet - lost him in my rear view mirror - lol!

 

[172Cup]

Cupsize.

He obviously was not trying

I have both. I know what each one is capable of!!

Also I had your attitude when I was 26, full no claims, no accidents, been driving since 17. Then came one fateful day when all that changed.

It can happen to even the best and,,,, dare I say,,, most confident in ones abilities!!

 

[TB1]

Have to agree with 172cup here (havnt done it in the scoob but ive scared meself a few times )

I did it at the beginning of this year, a few things caused it, me being tired (was 5am and on my way home from work) it was slightly damp (wet road) i was driving an astra van and an animal ran across the road whilst i was entering a corner, pulled the van a little too far to avoid (instant reaction which i now dont do as a few animals can vouch for!) the rear wheels lost grip (fwd vehicle) and slid. Snatched the rear back but by this time the front had clipped a large curb (about 20 inches high) and rolled said vehicle.... oooooooooops!

It can happen to anyone at anytime, but most people would have gone straight over and down the embankment (BIG drop) so i was quite lucky (and i wasnt actually going that quickly either, 45mph)



Tony

 

[CS_Matt]

i have a friend in his early 20s, he drives a tvr tuscan and a supercharged g40 polo. the tuscan hits 180mph and fear is the last thing on ya mind and the only thing on ya face is a huge smile. i dont know a better driver than him. its all down to the individual.

 

[TB1]

Ah, doing 180mph and not being afraid, well ive done 167mph in my car and i was sh***ing it . Fear is there for a reason, thats why alot of younger drivers think that they are very good and they are not

I shall define fear before i go on just to make sure that people dont think its about bottling it!

Fear is a natural bodily response, it produces adrenalin which increases (or seems to increase) your thinking/reactions. (if you have ever been in an accident you will know how slowly things go even though it takes 1 or 2 seconds it seems like 10 or more). It also lets you know your limits, if you dont know or understand your limits then you go beyond them, that normally ends up in disaster

If you drive on the roads in this or any country then you have to have some form of fear of the road. Being over confident is even worse than having no confidence at all. You have to also anticipate what is ahead and what you can do about it. Nobody is perfect at Anticipating what is ahead on the road (or behind!) and even ive made the mistake when i was younger about not anticipating the road and nearly coming a cropper....

Keep em coming though!



Tony

 

[MaLicE]

dont get me wrong i like going fast and although i only have a 1.4rt and fast and rt dont make sence but its my first car and i love it and i dont want to drive stupid and bugger it as i know i wouldnt have anouther car for a long time.

i like accelerating fast out of junctions etc and when going down duel carridgeways if i see a car i dont like i will accelerate to overtake it but my car means to much to me to drive like an idiot and end up loosing it.



jmho



ne way



MalicE

 

[Matt - Leics]

Good thread TB1.

 

[TB1]

Cheers Matt!

I just want more input though so keep on posting your opinions peeps!



Tony

 

[black-cat]

I recently read an article, I think it was published by the Driving Standards Agency, which stated that in a review of accident statistics only 4 % of all accidents were due to the driver losing control. Worringly however 68% of all accidents were caused by lack of concentration.

My point is that if you put an unexperienced driver in a car that is unpredictable, likely as not he will concentrate a lot harder on his driving and he should therefore be a safer driver. I think all these so-called driver aids can lead to over complacency.

 

[GR7]

Imagine what might happen at 167mph if a tyre was punctured and developed a blow-out ..... or an oncoming, overtaking equally daft lunatic might be heading straight for you..... Could be rather dangerous on a road where there are oncoming cars, lorries, bikes, walls, lamp posts etc.

Personally I think that excessive speeding should be kept for the track, where all the traffic is going the same way, there are no lamp posts or brick walls to crash into and there is plenty of kitty-litter to slide into, much kinder to the driver and car than a solid wall.

Stay safe!!

 

[BenR]

ok, i didnt read all this and i dont really see a problem.

if they do drive too fast for themselves and crash it sure as hell aint the fault of the manufacturers for lowering the price bracket.

i know for one......we pray for rainy weekends in HK as the following monday we have loads fo renaults and porsches lined up for crash damage repairs.......we make about 65% of our turnover though servicing and repairs.

 

[Captain Slarty]

anyone who drives at 160 or 180 on uk public roads is basically braindead.



I have picked up more body parts from people (who KNEW they were good drivers) than many here have had hot dinners.

Soooooo... sorry, but, I tend to agree that the inexperienced driver and a high performance car do not mix well.

The insurance companies also agree, so try to put large premiums to stop it happening, then ability to own these cars is often more down to income or daddies wallet rather than any sort of ability... again there will be exception, but not many.

Joe.

 

[Fred@BTM]

I have enough trouble with a 1.2 god knows what id be like in a 172!!!!

 

[BenR]

just out of interest........what do we all class as experince?

i certainly know years help........BUT...........i do have to say that if you only drive on the road all your life you can be quantified as an inexperienced driver.....take a look at taxi drivers.

also, any courses help.......

But, i must say.....i feel 100% safer on a racetrack with 30 cars about @ 120mph than 50mph on the road......decidedly dodgy........

 

[Captain Slarty]

experience.. aha, the old chestnut ..

well, there are 2 forms of experience...

lets take - 3 years experience as an example..

is that 3 years of learning and conditioning.. or

1 year repeated 3 times.. or 6 months repeated 6 times lol..

ie, did they actually learn, apply, learn more, apply, learn more etc etc ??.

the biggest danger is overconfidence... this tends to cause a LACK of learning....

Joe.

 

[BenR]

cool.......and thats partly why i poo myself on the roads when my mate drives flat out.........you just dont know whats gonna happen.....there is no certainty at all.......and im running out of shorts.

 

[davehocking]

so many valid points in this thread!

Well I for one am only 21, and affording my cup has nothing to do with my folks wallet, this car is ALL mine and I intend to keep it on the road. I feel more safe in a 172 with no ABS than I did in my 1.2 WITH ABS, the reason?

Fear, as was pointed out before, fear is there for a purpose, and I am rightly sh*t scared of the car outside. I love driving it fast, but in the right places. I am afraid to say that I probably do 35 in 30s, and 45 in 40s, a bad habit. I have topped 120 on an isolated stretch of the A74(M) at 11:30pm and I damn near papped myself. This is not a habit of mine BTW, I will normally not exceed 80 on the M-Ways unless overtaking. I have been driving four years and have had no crashes or convictions as yet. I fear that it is only a matter of time before the inevitable happens, lets face it, to reach middle age with no crashes/claims/convictions these days is probably about 1% of the population. This fear keeps me on the right side of sanity when behind the wheel. Personally I dont feel that doing 120 for about 3 seconds on an isolated, straight & dry section of the motorway is that bad at all. I would say that I am an inexperienced driver, but I also feel that I am quite good at handling the Clio, I have had NO "nearlys" in my cup, but I had a few in my 1.2. A combination of sheer luck / skill got me through, but one day, luck is going to run out. When I enter a bend at speed, I have already assessed what I am going to do if a car or some other obstacle were waiting for me on the bend, I always have enough grip in the bag that I could dart out and back in again without losing the back end of the car. I am not trying to make out that i am some perfect driver, cos if I were I would do 30 in 30s, 40 in 40s and 70 on the M-way, I am just fighting the corner for the small minority of young drivers who have powerful cars but dont drive at the limits.

Drive safe people

 

[davehocking]

bloody hell, that was a big one!

 

[aaronc]

Its all about getting used to the power. when i 1st got my 16v i didnt really have a clue about how powerful it was. But 4 years on i could probably drive that car better than micheal shumacher round a track as i know every limit that car has. Not saying im a better driver than him at all because im obviously not but driving that car i could probably keep ahead cos i know it so darn well.

I dont think its all that bad young drivers having fast cars as long as they get used to the power and learn how to drive safely using advanced driving techniques.

Oh and you guys with cups saying you dont ever drive fast, never over 80etc.... why the hell did you buy a Renualt sport cup one of the fastest cars in the renualt range!!??? you might as well have bought a 1.2!

aaron

 

[adiclio16v]

i agree with what has been said but i shoudnt because im 20 and have a resonablely fast car

but experiance is necessary, but in differant ways the first bit tells you that you shouldnt be doing 40 mph past a school in the wet and the second tells you how to handle your car

for e.g my dad whos been driving for 30 years would never drive past a school at 50 in the wet (and neither would i!) but if the back end of his car went on a wet bend hed stamp on the brake and probably crash it

i often like to go out to empty car parks in the rain and slide about learning the limits and characeristics of my car

i think ive got a resonable amount of common sense and a fairy good idea of how my car handles and behaves but some people i see driving (my age group) really shouldnt have a licence and its only a matter of time before they hurt themselves or somebody else,

but other than the driving test there is no way to decide who can drive and no way to decide who can have a fast car or not, maybe there should be

 

[Captain Slarty]

but other than the driving test there is no way to decide who can drive and no way to decide who can have a fast car or not, maybe there should be

Oh, but there is m8 !!>

IAM !!.. institute of advanced motorists.. do the course,, you WILL benefit, love it, and be safer..

Dont knock it.. Im an old git lol.. but, I bet ya a bent sixpence I can hold me own with most on here... lol... anytime...

reason..... ???.. Driving aint changed a lot over the years.. ya could argue that the old gits amongst us have had it rough lol....... we got the crap everything .. LOL...

Cos we could handle the crap.... it was easy to adapt to the good stuff.

So, do the IAM course, and,

a. It aint outdated and fuddy duddy lol..

and...

you get many years of experience in a few hours...

I would be so bold lol, as to say that ANYONE here who has not done the course, could, not only benefit tremendously, but WOULD also come back bragging ...

A lot of you guys learn by the collective nature of the net... I do,..... !..... but, in skills like driving, and handling, the net cant do it.. ya need to be one to one..

go for it..

I even think cliosport should adopt it as a standard.. plain n simple..

there ya go......... (Sorry for my Moralistic ideals hee hee)



Joe.

 

[TB1]

Aaron,

Michael Schumacher could probably get in your car and on the first lap put a good 10 secs between you and him

Adiclio, i know what your getting at, but wet car parks are not quite the same as wet roads, the handling of a car isnt just about putting the car into a slide, its about not putting it in there in the first place The good thing a car park offers is space, something that isnt available on most roads carry on learning but you can go too far and put the car into a spin that you wont be able to get out of easily



Tony

 

[Captain Slarty]

TB1..



I was not too sure how to read you when you first posted...



but,,,

I LIKE your style...

I bow..

Joe.

 

[TB1]

Cheers Joe

I am trying to be very tactile in my approach



Tony

 

[TB1]

Joe,

Off topic, u going to be at the NW meet in Rochdale on sat?



Tony

 

[adiclio16v]

i like to know what the limits of my car are and how it behaves i.e wether it has terrible lift off oversteer, but i dont learn to go faster in the wet

all of which can be done on an empty car park and once you know how to correct a slide your less likely to get caught out on a wet roundabout if you misjudge it (there is one near mine that is lethal doesnt look it but its like ice in the wet, seen many a car stuck in the curb )

do you not think its a good idea to learn about car control ,weight transfer e.t.c ,together with track days its a good way to learn how to handle a car

i agree with the IAM and have often thought bout doin it but neva got round to it

but as i said theres nuthin to determine who can drive what , a 17 yr old could buy a ferrari if he had enough cash dya not think there should be a test to drive a car over a certain insurance group maybe like the IAM course

adi

 

[aaronc]

TB1

I await a challange with shumacher than

 

[Captain Slarty]

TB, Yes, I hope so, I wont be stopping long.. just to say hi..

Joe.

 

[CS_Matt]

Quote: Originally posted by Captain Slarty on 16 October 2002
anyone who drives at 160 or 180 on uk public roads is basically braindead.

just to clarify it was on a autobahn that it hit 180 not on uk road

and as brought up previos what is experience? im only 19 and have been driving for 2 years, however i comute to uni and have already covered 20,000 miles this year, since i passed my test ive prob done about 50,000 miles, that equates to 5 years of driving?

do i have the experience of a 23/25 year old or?

hard to gauge experience

 

[Clio 172 Cup]

I think age only comes in to half of it.

You also have to know your personal limits, I been driving 16 years, and although I been and mad man, in my time, Ive been lucky enough to have a car that has higher limits than me, so I havent had much trouble.

Its when obviously you over step your limits, and worst still the cars.

My cup is 10 days old and Im loving it, although, I agree it does take alot more consentration to drive it, but a hell of a lot of fun

 

[Frosty]

This is a really good thread. Lots of mixed thoughts here.

I think Joe is right in saying that an advanced driving course is the way to go. I intend to do one because there is so much I dont know about how my car drives.

I only have just over 2 years driving experience, so it would be plain ignorance to say i am experienced. However, I worked hard to get the car (I paid for it, not my parents) and so that is another thought that comes into my head when nailing it - "what if I loose it?"

I know my limits, assess the roads ahead, ALWAYS take into account the conditions/other road users, and generally use a lot of common sence when driving faster than usual.

I dont think I can enjoy the car as much as I do and be any more sensible, but I will attend some driving tuition courses for sure, then adjust accordingly.

Laurence.

 

[SydneyClioSport]

Im only just 18, and I drive my dads 172 (only car Im now insured on). My parents were understandably cautious about letting me drive this car. But while everyones been saying how youve got to get used to the power, and questioning if young inexperienced drivers should be in these cars, I have to say that the car is not all that quick that it suddenly becomes vastly more dangerous to drive. (controversy)

I mean, it accelerates faster. This is the only more dangerous thing i can think of about a 172 to other cars. Everything else (handling, stability) would seem to make the car safer when pushed.

However I think the danger has got to do with how fun the car feels to drive, so you just want to push it. It makes you want to accelerate out of corners. But does acceleration cause the danger, or does driving too fast round corners cause the danger? You can still take a corner at speed and get into truble in a slower car. I used to push our 10 yr old 318i and that felt alot less safe because it skipped around alot more, and had worse handling.

I dont know the limits of the 172, because im not a good enough driver to test them, so dont drive it to the edge. But I still have alot of fun in it, and I dont at all feel like Im going to loose control every time i put my foot down.

Just some ramblings. Feel free to shoot me down.

 

[AndyHickling]

Good Topic.

Im 24 and have had my S*xo for 3yrs now. I crashed it 2yrs ago been a knob...(Female involved & my temper) Since then I have totally lost my confidence. I can be following a rep mobile round a motorway sliproad and see his car leaning all over the place and still not dare to try and corner at the same speed regardless if my car can or not.

Im quite happy knowing that my car could if it wanted to. But could I?

I say sod it Id prefer to keep my car in one piece instead of trying to prove a point to some dickhead.

Im happy driving under my cars capabilities as its just not worth it.

 

[RSTDL]

I have an IQ of 75 does that make me half a genius?? Experience and age are inextricably linked but look at the young Rally drivers/Formula 3000 even the likes of Button in Formala One - u cant tell them they shouldnt push on coz they havent got x years of experinece - a younger driver can be as competent/safe on the edge etc as an older one etc - maybe better - however Im a better driver than I was at 17 - think its down to confidence/ driving conditions/car and intelligence maybe - pride/ego is the killer!

 

[TB1]

We shall have to point out about these racing/rally drivers

These guys (and gals) are in a driving seat by the age of 5 in most cases (mainly go carts) so they start young (for racing) it does give them experience but a different type, it still took Button, Schumacher etc years to become the drivers they are now (even though they are quite young) they just started earlier



Tony

 

[Captain Slarty]

and, all the traffic goes the same way (most of the time) !.. lol..

racing is about getting there in the best time...

Road driving is about - errr, driving on the road.. with lots of other muppets about, rules, regulations etc that are there to make the place safer for everyone.