"Clio Tax"

[Cup_Phil]

This got touched on in burpspeeds thread, but got derailed. It's still bugging me though so want to know what other people think

Why do all Clio parts seem to have a "Clio Tax" added on? Are people just happier paying more for the same stuff??

I made a little comparison list between a Clio 172 and a 106 GTi..

OMP cage for clio - £600, 106 - £400
Bodies for clio - £1200, 106 - £900
"Good" coilovers for clio - £1200+, 106 - £900
"Good" exhaust for clio - £600, 106 - £300

And that's just brand new parts. When you start looking at 4pots which are a minimum of £400 on clios yet you can pick them up for £100 on 106's the difference becomes even bigger.

The one that I'm currently REALLY confused about is cams. I want a set of 421's this winter - £594, but a set of catcams for a 106 gti are £300

How can they possibly cost double to produce? Both are a pair of camshafts milled from a blank. I just can't get my head around it.

 

[sonny172cup]

Prob due to them being popular, its funny when you start looking at other parts and see the price difference, its something I have noticed too.

 

[Cup_Phil]

Prob due to them being popular, its funny when you start looking at other parts and see the price difference, its something I have noticed too.

Are there really that many more cam'd clio's than there are cam'd 106's and saxo's though?

I got warned of it when I swapped my GTi for a Clio - everyone said you needed deeper pockets but I still find it very strange when like the cams the parts are virtually identical.

 

[botfch]

That's the capitalist system for yah.

 

[Midnight]

I had to giggle when I read this, wait until you have a M3 / AMG / Porsche then. Incredible prices!

 

[Mistercorn]

I bought a Clio because the parts were very cheap, ideal for running on track days. There might be a Clio tax, but it is massively less than the tax for many other cars.

MC

 

[Harbinger]

Rnd Costs, changing the cams on a 106 is far quicker / easier / cheaper than a 1*2, has a much bigger following and being it's more popular so demand will be affected, look at Cooksport springs as an example, they don't even have any stock and rated to be the best, it's all supply and demand, it'll die off eventually once a few more catch fire.

 

[Cup_Phil]

I had to giggle when I read this, wait until you have a M3 / AMG / Porsche then. Incredible prices!

I bought a Clio because the parts were very cheap, ideal for running on track days. There might be a Clio tax, but it is massively less than the tax for many other cars.

MC

Oh aye don't get me wrong I realise in the grand scheme of things they're still quite cheap to build/run - it just confuses me why they are so much more expensive to mod than similar cars.

Rnd Costs, changing the cams on a 106 is far quicker / easier / cheaper than a 1*2, has a much bigger following and being it's more popular so demand will be affected, look at Cooksport springs as an example, they don't even have any stock and rated to be the best, it's all supply and demand, it'll die off eventually once a few more catch fire.

R+D is all I can think as well - but does it really cost so much more to develop a set of Clio cams than it does a set of 106 cams. They aren't that much more difficult to swap cams on tbh with an engine out the car on an engine dyno.

 

[Harbinger]

Not that's true Phil it really is, the most locigal although most unreasonable is so many people boost / ITB / SC these things at phenomenal cost so they'll probably have a formula as to what these upgrades are worth to the cost of these jobs vs the same work on others cars too, I bet it's more work to boost a Clio than a 106 just looking at the manifold alone, with that said it's a reflection of people are willing to spend more on a Clio than a Pug, so yes it is logically Clio tax.

 

[cat171]

Sell the Clio & buy a 106.

 

[Cup_Phil]

Not that's true Phil it really is, the most locigal although most unreasonable is so many people boost / ITB / SC these things at phenomenal cost so they'll probably have a formula as to what these upgrades are worth to the cost of these jobs vs the same work on others cars too, I bet it's more work to boost a Clio than a 106 just looking at the manifold alone, with that said it's a reflection of people are willing to spend more on a Clio than a Pug, so yes it is logically Clio tax.

Yeah I guess that makes sense. £2k min to do bodies, £3k ish for boost. So cams costing £700 + £300 map + fitting - puts them at around £1200 which is ok compared to the other options.
That sucks. I wish the price of things were based on what they cost to make rather than what they think they can charge.

I wouldn't say boosting a 106 is any cheaper - you're still looking around £3k. But a full set of bodies is £900 so there's no way anyone would pay £700 for cams lol

 

[Cup_Phil]

Sell the Clio & buy a 106.

I've gone a bit far for that now lol. I'd lose so much money on the bits on my Clio it would be pointless.

Plus I had a 106 for 8+ years. I bought the clio for a change. Also 106's rust the minute you look at them

 

[loggyboy]

Prob due to them being popular, its funny when you start looking at other parts and see the price difference, its something I have noticed too.

Its proabably the other way round, the fact that its more popular to upgrade 106s/saxos, (they are under powered after all ) makes them cheaper. Same as tyres, the more common sizes are cheaper, regardless of size how much rubber they are made out of.

 

[Crybert]

I had to giggle when I read this, wait until you have a M3 / AMG / Porsche then. Incredible prices!

Exactly this. M3:

Coilovers 2k
bbk 2k

its horses for courses, I paid 1k for a bootlid for my m3 haha, granted it was a CSL one but still crazy money, also paid £900 for second hand coilies. Big bucks!

 

[Harbinger]

Also let's not forget, price comparisons, if you were selling parts for a Clio who would you complete with, Ktec....... all they will do is check their prices and sell them slightly lower, regardless of peoples opinions.

 

[Stu172cup]

There is always a "tax" on popular parts

be is rare gay things in the VW scene - like homo trinkets

or Cosworth/RS parts in the Ford scene

Bits that people want people are willing to pay for

 

[Tunst]

Cams for 106 can be fitted with your eyes closed too..

 

[Cup_Phil]

Exactly this. M3:

Coilovers 2k
bbk 2k

its horses for courses, I paid 1k for a bootlid for my m3 haha, granted it was a CSL one but still crazy money, also paid £900 for second hand coilies. Big bucks!

LOL I paid £900 for second hand Clio coilovers!

 

[Cup_Phil]

Cams for 106 can be fitted with your eyes closed too..

I don't get that?

You still have to remove and re-seal the cam covers, you still have to lock the flywheel in TDC and time everything.
Other than the fact that you have to strip the inlet manifold off a clio they are very similar. If you have the right tools I doubt either is quicker tbh.

8v 106/saxo definitely - I've changed a cam in about an hour, but the 16v aint much different

 

[Dave..]

At least the parts are available in the first place.

There's one company of note that supplies parts for mine. Anything specific tends to be dealer only unless you stumble across some one breaking one.

 

[sonny172cup]

True, not clued up on the 106..Clio cams have the VVT and timings slots, does the 106 have something similar too, maybe the cost is to have them engineered in.

I spent a lot of money on moding a RS4, the full Miltek exhaust system alone was around 4k where as other models that uses similar pipe work was a lot less!

 

[Cup_Phil]

106 cam pulleys have a hole in them that you lock to positions on the head. Flywheel has a hole that you lock in a very similar fashion to the Clio.
So you lock it all in place, remove the belts, swap the cams, re-fit the belts, turn it over a few times, check the timing etc...
It's pretty identical to clio cams except you lock them at the pulley end rather than the opposite end

The dififculty with clio's tbh is the air con system - but I doubt anyone would use an air con engine to develop cam profiles.

 

[Jay_Kay]

Are Non-vvt cams cheaper than vvt ones?

 

[Coops Mk1]

At least the parts are available in the first place.

There's one company of note that supplies parts for mine. Anything specific tends to be dealer only unless you stumble across some one breaking one.

that's because you bought a 1920's steam powered yacht.................or something like that isn't it?

 

[Cup_Phil]

Are Non-vvt cams cheaper than vvt ones?

Nope - same price

 

[Dave..]

that's because you bought a 1920's steam powered yacht.................or something like that isn't it?

Cheeky f*cker

You're just jealous cus I've got two turbos!

 

[172Ben]

Clio tax isn't as bad as some!!

 

[Coops Mk1]

Cheeky f*cker

You're just jealous cus I've got two turbos!

and yet your mobile library is significantly slower than my tin can with a paltry one turbo

 

[The Chubby Pirate]

There are alternatives and you really don't have to have 'the best' as it were. A roll cage is only good if you don't die when you roll the motor onto its roof.

As per BMW/Porsche, anyone venturing that way will more than likely have the candy to buy the fancy bells and whistles in the first place, different ponies for different beaches etc.

 

[Dave..]

and yet your mobile library is significantly slower than my tin can with a paltry one turbo

Terribly sorry, I can't hear you over the 4 young ladies and the two dogs I have in the back.

 

[BIGASH]

F4R cams are actually quite difficult to manufacture as the oil feed runs through the cam. This limits them to only being able to made on the more expensive machines.

I don't know about the pug cams but this could be the reason.

Roll cage I imagine is because there is actually more material in the cage for a clio as the shell is bigger so requires more tube.

 

[Cup_Phil]

F4R cams are actually quite difficult to manufacture as the oil feed runs through the cam. This limits them to only being able to made on the more expensive machines.

I don't know about the pug cams but this could be the reason.

Roll cage I imagine is because there is actually more material in the cage for a clio as the shell is bigger so requires more tube.

Ahhh I did not know that about the cams! That certainly explains their cost.

 

[Coops Mk1]

Terribly sorry, I can't hear you over the 4 young ladies and the two dogs I have in the back.

you been at the wirksworth women again?

 

[plymcl172]

its never bothered me TBH

the price of parts on another hot hatch the Clio would be far cheaper all day long !

depends what you campare it too, 106-Clio they are very different cars

 

[MG cup]

Just payed £350 for parts alone + £50 for tools to do my timing belt on the Jeep .... Clio's are cheap for everything in comparison.

The only thing that's arguably more on a Clio is the diffs, everything else is much the same as other hatchbacks of the same era if your talking tuning parts, premiums are charged for doing the work mind you if you can't yourself.

 

[Fantom]

Some of the problem these days is the cheapness of the car.
If you bought a ph1 172 brand new for £17k, then the price of cams is not that bad.
Now you can pay less than a grand for a ph1 and the price of the cams is the same.

 

[MG cup]

^^^^ On that note, people on here especially drive the price of cars down and the price of mods up. I have noticed a lot on here compare the price of cars against the mods they're doing, I guess its the type of person that buys a Clio, other higher level cars people just fit parts as they have a bit more cash and don't care so much for the residuals, they just want what they want. Bit of a sweeping statement but in general its true.

 

[Stu172cup]

^^^^ On that note, people on here especially drive the price of cars down and the price of mods up. I have noticed a lot on here compare the price of cars against the mods they're doing, I guess its the type of person that buys a Clio, other higher level cars people just fit parts as they have a bit more cash and don't care so much for the residuals, they just want what they want. Bit of a sweeping statement but in general its true.

Totally Agree , hence the number of cars being broken once people are done with them

I also think that they are at their lowest point i doubt theyll get much cheaper - but are there the new breed of enthuiasts coming through to keep these things going , like the MGB and austin healeys ?

 

[Budgie]

its never bothered me TBH

the price of parts on another hot hatch the Clio would be far cheaper all day long !

depends what you campare it too, 106-Clio they are very different cars

Yep. Massively different.

One's a mass produced French FWD Hot hatch.

The other is a mass produced French FWD Hot hatch.

 

[Cup_Phil]

Yep you can't compare one cheap mass produced 4cylinder revvy french FWD hot hatch with 150bhp/tonne to another cheap mass produced 4cylinder revvy french FWD hot hatch with 150bhp/tonne - totally different cars lol