Clio williams

[steVee 6]

what you should have said was the williams will never be in the same class which is exactly the point i am making, its cheap and cheerful but average.

fact.

seriously poor argument you got there.

Enjoy the clio.....

I disagree and its typical that it’s not able to stand up against other cars of its time and that is exactly the point,, it’s just looks plain.

take the mini, it took on and beat all on the major world events and was truly revolutionary a great car a legend, the escort was the same and is still winning rallies to this day, a legend a great car.

I say again a Williams has won nowt and done nowt and is very very average.

 

[theduck]

again you seem to be ignoring my posts....

Name ONE CAR that was directly comparable to the Williams at the time that you would say isnt average

 

[Russ_16v]

GUYS GUYS!!

Seriously it amazes me how CS threads can turn into such a huge agrument!

The clio V6 is a gorgous looking car, and fast too, and no doubt will become a classic one day and its already respected for its 'playfull handling'

The civic type r is also a great car, ok not as involving as a french car,but then again what is? its japanese, generally better built and has a cracker of an engine and has sold loads to prove its popularity

The 1*2's are great in there own right, like a williams just a little more soggy and grown up,still fun to drive and reliable if there looked after but can still (like the cars above) be made a lot better than standard with choise mods

The williams, well what can be said that hasnt already? a good low mileage williams can impress greatly, and really did set the bench mark for hot hatches (im not making comparasons to cars like the 205 as we will be here all day lol) , not super quick when standard, but sooooo much fun, light, nimble and again can be greatly improved with a few choice mods, like all the cars above if you get bad one you will hate it, the rattly dash, the rust, the bangs and clunks, but a good one will keep you smiling all day long, and to be honest any of the above cars in would do the same, comparing a 15 year old williams to a 3 year old type r is not generally fair, although it does prove what an amazing little car the williams was when it first came out,and how today in standard form can produce a great drive, and with mods can be even better, but of course thats the same for the civic and the V6 and the 1*2

Anyway guys lets not get too 'this is better than that' because i very much doubt anyone will be able to ever prove it, how about we agree how great all these cars are and that we are lucky we still have fossil fuels so we can drive them :race:

All in the love

 

[TomS]

I'm chuckling at this....

 

[realnumber 1]

I'm sorry but I still fail to see why a road car can only be classed as average unless it had a counterpart that won races??

 

[steVee 6]

i have just answered your point above, the cars above are legends they beat all the best cars of all classes that were around in there day, they are motoring legends.

you are scratching around and narrowing the field in the hope of some kind of result, the williams did nothing its a nice car but very average, the truly great cars dont need excuses.

 

[theduck]

I'm sorry but I still fail to see why a road car can only be classed as average unless it had a counterpart that won races??

because its not an M3 or Cossie apparently

 

[steVee 6]

again .

i have just answered your point above, the cars above are legends they beat all the best cars of all classes that were around in there day, they are motoring legends.

you are scratching around and narrowing the field in the hope of some kind of result, the williams did nothing its a nice car but very average, the truly great cars dont need excuses.

not just cossie or m3 but mini and escort etc.

 

[TomS]

i have just answered your point above, the cars above are legends they beat all the best cars of all classes that were around in there day, they are motoring legends.

you are scratching around and narrowing the field in the hope of some kind of result, the williams did nothing its a nice car but very average, the truly great cars dont need excuses.

Do you think the V6 is a truly great car?

I normally agree it's a matter of opinion.... but to say a Williams clio is average is funny as fook!

 

[theduck]

i have just answered your point above, the cars above are legends they beat all the best cars of all classes that were around in there day, they are motoring legends.

you are scratching around and narrowing the field in the hope of some kind of result, the williams did nothing its a nice car but very average, the truly great cars dont need excuses.

I am not scratching around for anything! As Russ said, the Williams set the benchmark for hot hatches! That makes it far from average, and I think any true car enthusiast would disagree with you.

 

[realnumber 1]

i have just answered your point above, the cars above are legends they beat all the best cars of all classes that were around in there day, they are motoring legends.

you are scratching around and narrowing the field in the hope of some kind of result, the williams did nothing its a nice car but very average, the truly great cars dont need excuses.

The 205 won many a rally, how come you aint mentioned those? there closer to the williams than the M3.
Also the Corrado VR6 is another fine example of a car that is regarded as a "truly great drivers car" (and was FWD!). I dont remember those winning anything speacial appart from peoples hearts

 

[steVee 6]

you are scratching, who mentioned hot hatch?? i did not i am talking about great cars to drive and the williams looks average from my point of view.

had it achieved anything i might agree but it never did, in the real world on the big stage it never did, therefore its average a long with a lot of other nice cars.

the mini was cheap as chips bottom of the pile but if you look for results it beat them all in its day,, now thats a bench mark not some copy cat car that made little impact.

average fact.

 

[TomS]

I'm beggining to think you're right... seeing as you've argued your point so well with some superb knowledge on the car in question, plus you drive a clio v6..... i'm swayed.

 

[steVee 6]

its not me thats trying to say the V6 is a great car, i never have and never will i said its quicker than a williams and it is fact.

blame thejesus for bringing the V6 into it not me.

me i love the old escorts that i used to drive years ago but i aint bleating on about them, and i know time moves on and today performance wise they look, dare i say it a little average.LOL

 

[Martin]

lol steeeeeeveee trolling ftl

 

[steVee 6]

OH COME ON,, all i said was i think the williams is very average is just my honest opinion.

 

[theduck]

its not me thats trying to say the V6 is a great car, i never have and never will i said its quicker than a williams and it is fact.

blame thejesus for bringing the V6 into it not me.

me i love the old escorts that i used to drive years ago but i aint bleating on about them, and i know time moves on and today performance wise they look, dare i say it a little average.LOL

Steve imho you are a fool and will not waste my energy arguing this with you anymore.

Edit: oh and things cannot be VERY AVERAGE they are average or they are not. Also you can not have an AVERAGE FACT its either fact or not.

 

[steVee 6]

good, LOL

and i think your argument was lame and lost even before you started. :rasp:

ah the grammer lesson, LOL when all else fails try twist the thing around.

 

[Russ_16v]

i will say the williams might not have had world victories, but it did in fance, check out any of jean ragnotti's vids for proof


not that im stickin up for the willy, but with light tuning mods (the engine was still factory sealed) mine would hit 60 in under 6 seconds, run the 1/4 mile in 14 secs dead all day, and hit its rev limiter in 5th from a standing start in half a minute, and did this for 20k hard miles with me and never missed a beat, all with 148 bhp atw, and with a set of koni shocks and a pair of 60k old unkoown make of lowering springs it handled brilliantly, lapping combe in under 1 1/2 mins and never feeling as old as it was

admitidly if it were standard it would have not been anywhere near as fast,but thats the point, its a 15 year old car, that with a few choice mods can leave most modern hot hatches in its wake including Vee's as i (and martin proved many a time) but im not going to say this makes it better than a vee,or a civic,or a corrado or 205 as in my opinion i think there are in different classes, a Vee today isnt a classic or a lengend, its what happens when Renaults designers are let back into the drawing room after getting pissed at the works party lol, and im glad they did as its a cracking car,but is it winning races/rallies? nope as its not meant for that, and nore was the williams, it was meant as a cracking road car (as is the Vee) and they both pull that off very well in very different ways

 

[TomS]

Russ FTW tbh

 

[theduck]

good, LOL

and i think your argument was lame and lost even before you started. :rasp:

ah the grammer lesson, LOL when all else fails try twist the thing around.

The English lesson is a complete side note.

 

[franx]

I remember my friend the legend driving the v6.... not for long , it could'nt take his driving . Engine overheated

The Williams here in Holland is still talked about; hardly average

The v6 , Williams , Cup all not so average cars in my opinion

 

[steVee 6]

never said the vee was winning never said it was a legend never claimed it to be a great car,, never said it could beat every wild driver in a stripped out shed.

thejesus brought the vee into this not me.

i said i thought the williams average thats my opinion, i said a standard V6 is quicker than a standard williams thats a fact.

 

[theduck]

never said the vee was winning never said it was a legend never claimed it to be a great car,, never said it could beat every wild driver in a stripped out shed.

thejesus brought the vee into this not me.

i said i thought the williams average thats my opinion, i said a standard V6 is quicker than a standard williams thats a fact.

in certain circumstances yes, in others the williams is faster

 

[steVee 6]

overall the williams is slower.

fact.

 

[Revels]

and next week steVee will be writing a new book.. "How to win friends and influence people on the internet"

 

[Heliosphan]

Steve, you've used the word 'average' about a million times in this thread and almost every time you've also said 'in my opinion'.

So, is it an average car by todays's standards?

Remember, we're talking about cars in the same class before you give an answer.

 

[Jingo]

my williams matches my 172 for speed no doubt about it!

 

[steVee 6]

your talking about cars in the same class, i am talking about all cars and i honestly believe there are far better cars of that generation.

as i said the mini was bottom of the heap the cheapest car money could buy at the time yet it beat them all on road or track, a legend guys so lets not get to hyper about the williams it never achieved anything its, well i think you can guess. LOL

 

[FlamingMonkey]

hehe Where's Stromba?

 

[White16valver]

Steve - have you driven a williams?

 

[steVee 6]

yes.

but i prefered my old 205gti.

 

[Russ_16v]

Steve you are right in the fact of std vs std the clio v6 is faster than the williams

overall the williams is slower.

fact.

this is not a fact as i would lay money on most williams not being std, and as iv said (and can prove) a lightly fettled williams IS quicker than a vee,but this is hearsay

your talking about cars in the same class, i am talking about all cars and i honestly believe there are far better cars of that generation.

as i said the mini was bottom of the heap the cheapest car money could buy at the time yet it beat them all on road or track, a legend guys so lets not get to hyper about the williams it never achieved anything its, well i think you can guess. LOL

yes i agree with the mini, but alec issigonis put alot of time into the designing the mini and it was a great little car,then john cooper got hold of it and showed what it could do with being tuned up EXACTLY the way the williams can be, a std 1.0ltr mini has 38 bhp, and against its rivals (ie hillman imp) doesnt really shine much above it , few mods and it blows it into the weeds


Just out of interest you said 'i honestly believe there were better cars it its class from that generation' could you explain for me what you think is better? (that wasnt meant sacasticly mate id like to know )

 

[steVee 6]

oh and i owned a 182 cup for a year before the V6.

plus RS2000
MK1 escort lotus twin cam
a mini plus a rallycross mini raced for 8 years
etc etc over many years.

 

[3doorpete]

I drove a brand new one in '93 and also a brand new Corrado VR6 in the same year (both company cars for youngsters who worked for my dad at the time). I remember being fairly unmoved by the Clio Williams but remember it as quick, but the Corrado VR6 really sticks in my mind as awesome. Not sure if I'd think the same today as I appreciate chassis dynamics more.

As for the guy who said all FWD are average - he has a point in my view. There are some great FWD chassis, but even an average RWD chassis has them beat for driver involvement and thrills in my view. Accelerating from mid corner and fighting to control torque steer and understeer is frustrating, whereas controlling oversteer and feeling the back dig in and grip under power with uncorrupted steering is rewarding and more skillful.

At the end of the day, whoever has tweaked a Clio - Williams, Renaultsport etc, it was still designed as a shopping car first and foremost - that has been improved upon. Take a car designed from the outset to please the driver and be sporty and if well executed they will always beat a hot hatch for thrills as they are not a compromise - ESPECIALLY if they are RWD

 

[steVee 6]

[QUOTEJust out of interest you said 'i honestly believe there were better cars it its class from that generation' could you explain for me what you think is better? )[/QUOTE]

now thats just plain out of order and is not what i said as you well know, go back and quote me properly please.


this is what i said.

i honestly believe there are far better cars of that generation.

 

[Russ_16v]

At the end of the day, whoever has tweaked a Clio - Williams, Renaultsport etc, it was still designed as a shopping car first and foremost - that has been improved upon. Take a car designed from the outset to please the driver and be sporty and if well executed they will always beat a hot hatch for thrills as they are not a compromise - ESPECIALLY if they are RWD

very good point mate but i have to disagree with the above statement, yes the car wasnt meant to be a pure performance car but just because it was loosely based on a 'shopping car' doesnt not make it any less of a sporty vehicle, i enjoy throwing mine into a bend, steering on the strottle to get the back end into play, then flooring out, just as much fun a cornering a RWD car,just a different kind of fun

 

[Russ_16v]

[QUOTEJust out of interest you said 'i honestly believe there were better cars it its class from that generation' could you explain for me what you think is better? )

now thats just plain out of order and is not what i said as you well know, go back and quote me properly please.


this is what i said.

i honestly believe there are far better cars of that generation.[/quote]






easy tiger! i didnt mean it in any nasty way!

im asking your honest opinion what you think is a better car of that generation thats all

 

[steVee 6]

I drove a brand new one in '93 and also a brand new Corrado VR6 in the same year (both company cars for youngsters who worked for my dad at the time). I remember being fairly unmoved by the Clio Williams but remember it as quick, but the Corrado VR6 really sticks in my mind as awesome. Not sure if I'd think the same today as I appreciate chassis dynamics more.

As for the guy who said all FWD are average - he has a point in my view. There are some great FWD chassis, but even an average RWD chassis has them beat for driver involvement and thrills in my view. Accelerating from mid corner and fighting to control torque steer and understeer is frustrating, whereas controlling oversteer and feeling the back dig in and grip under power with uncorrupted steering is rewarding and more skillful.

At the end of the day, whoever has tweaked a Clio - Williams, Renaultsport etc, it was still designed as a shopping car first and foremost - that has been improved upon. Take a car designed from the outset to please the driver and be sporty and if well executed they will always beat a hot hatch for thrills as they are not a compromise - ESPECIALLY if they are RWD

exactly my point, i would not go so far as to call them shopping trolleys but the rest yes thats exactly it, its the level of driver input and reward, not always how fast but how much of a joy to drive.

and with that in mind there are far better drives than a wiliams if you care to look around.

 

[steVee 6]

ok russ for me to drive and enjoy more i need rear wheel drive pure and simple so if you ask me to pick a car as cheap as a williams i cant can i as rear steer costs more now.

so of its generation, sierra cossie, M3 that sort of thing, i would get so much more pleasure from them than i ever would from any fwd let a lone a williams.

this is why i have a v6 no its not the fastest car ever built or the best handling car ever built, but if you put the effort in it is a better drive imho and for 23k brand new what choice was there????