Coilovers / standard suspension

[rockport]

Right - this is a really embarassing question - but ive got to ask it cus i get really confused when i read threads about coilovers etc..

Can anyone tell me what the differences are between OEM suspension struts (what come as standard) to coilovers? Until now i thought it was just a fancy word for aftermarket suspension - stiffer springs / improved dampening?

Can anyone clear this for me?



Cheers

 

[Tom]

the coils sit over the dampers more.

 

[rockport]

is that it ? whats the advantages in that? the fact you can lower your car more if you wish?

 

[McBunny]

coilovers ok most cheap ones dont have remote resevoirs but still

http://www.belgiumact.com/images/cliorsw.jpg

what standard type crap stuff looks like

http://erc.qmuc.ac.uk/cliosport/gallery/full/1078224433__strut.jpg

 

[rockport]

ah - cheers dogmaul, it all becomes very clear now! lol

 

[Glennclio16v]

Get some coilovers J!!

 

[cliosportcraig]

Dogmaul what are those coilies youve posted up ?? They remotely adjustable like hydraulics ?

 

[McBunny]

no just remote resevoirs for the oil they are for the 172/cup/182 yada yada yada

 

[crono33]

i think one of the reason for using coilovers is the fact that it is possible to fit adjustable top mounts to set up the camber

the struts in the pics also have very thick shaft, which makes for a more robust suspension

lowering is not the reason. lowering on road cars is often just a cosmetic improvement. suspensions have a geometry that must be retained. lowering more than a few mms usually upset completely all the suspension geometry and CV joints lifespan. not to mention the stresses on the bodyshell.

also adjustable hydraulics dont have much sense. hydraulics must be adjusted when changing spring rate or car weight. but there is only one narrow good setting for a given excursion, spring rate and vehicle weight.
motorcycles have ususlla fully adjustable rear suspensions because the payload can vary greatly, from one skinny rider to two fat assed ones.
some little adjustement can be useful to compesate the shock aging.
some aftermarket shocks are adjustable sipmly because they fit on different cars, so the manufacturers dont have to produce too many types of shocks.

gm

Quote: Originally posted by rockport on 02 March 2004
Right - this is a really embarassing question - but ive got to ask it cus i get really confused when i read threads about coilovers etc..Can anyone tell me what the differences are between OEM suspension struts (what come as standard) to coilovers? Until now i thought it was just a fancy word for aftermarket suspension - stiffer springs / improved dampening?Can anyone clear this for me?  Cheers

 

[McBunny]

erm adjusting the hydraulics is more than just that gotta use it for setting rebound and bump and things too

 

[crono33]

yes but there is only a narrow range of hydraulic settings that can be used with a certain suspension setup. thats why most cars dont have adjustable shocks. because they are useless and even dangerous when in the wrong hands.

the practice of using hydraulic settings to cheat the suspension (for instance harder compression setting to simulate a harder spring, like i have heard someone advising on another forum) is a VERY bad practice, and dangerous too.

car manufacturers spend millions and thousdands of hours setting and testing suspensions. lack of bodyroll, or ground clearance doesnt mean at all better performances.
if adjustable shocks were a good idea, folks like porsche of ferrari would use them. some of them have different suspension settings adjustable from the cockpit but that is a lot more than just an adjustable shock.

a suspension is a very complex system where many elements (spring, shock, ARB, tire, bodyshell) have to work together. setting suspensions is something i would leave to specialists.

gm
Quote: Originally posted by dogmaul on 02 March 2004erm adjusting the hydraulics is more than just that gotta use it for setting rebound and bump and things too

 

[u33db]

Quote: Originally posted by rockport on 02 March 2004


Can anyone tell me what the differences are between OEM suspension struts (what come as standard) to coilovers? Until now i thought it was just a fancy word for aftermarket suspension - stiffer springs / improved dampening?

OEM suspension consists of a strut and spring whereas coilovers consist of a very thin strut and two springs which are separated by a small platform. Some coilovers can be be height adjustable as well dampling adjustable - I think that the stiffness is altered by moving the separator ring up or down the strut therby distrubuting the damping stressess between the two springs (which have different spring rates).

Coilovers are always aftermarket but you can also get "aftermarket struts and springs" which are basically just an uprated/modified OEM design. These dont have the ability to modify the damping/lowering for varying situations.

^Erm....laymans guide so dont quote me!

 

[McBunny]

crono yes can be bad in the wrong hands but id only ever get the suspension set up by a pro they know whats best. but those coilovers that i posted are by a very very reputable company who do bespoke kits for paris dakar cars and well just about any type of car rally, circuit what ever they are one of the best companys in the world. much much better than oem units oh and the high end exotica do come with adjustable stuff not all but a few do

 

[crono33]

i am sure they produce high quality stuff but i would be surprised if as much as 3% of the people on this forum would have any clue at all on how to set up a suspension.
personally, i declare all my ignorance on the matter.



Quote: Originally posted by dogmaul on 02 March 2004
crono yes can be bad in the wrong hands but id only ever get the suspension set up by a pro they know whats best. but those coilovers that i posted are by a very very reputable company who do bespoke kits for  paris dakar cars and well just about any type of car rally, circuit  what ever they are one of the best companys in the world. much much better than oem units oh and the high end exotica do come with adjustable stuff not all but a few do 

 

[McBunny]

oh like i said id never set it up my self it be far too dangerous it would have to go to an expert in these matters someone with years of experience in suspension geometry

 

[BenR]

Quote: Originally posted by u33db on 02 March 2004


OEM suspension consists of a strut and spring whereas coilovers consist of a very thin strut and two springs which are separated by a small platform. Some coilovers can be be height adjustable as well dampling adjustable - I think that the stiffness is altered by moving the separator ring up or down the strut therby distrubuting the damping stressess between the two springs (which have different spring rates).

Coilovers are always aftermarket but you can also get "aftermarket struts and springs" which are basically just an uprated/modified OEM design. These dont have the ability to modify the damping/lowering for varying situations.

^Erm....laymans guide so dont quote me!

All coil overs have adj seat platforms. Not all coilovers have a tender spring which is primarily there to prevent dislocation of the main springs in full extension.

 

[BenR]

Quote: Originally posted by crono33 on 02 March 2004

i think one of the reason for using coilovers is the fact that it is possible to fit adjustable top mounts to set up the camber

the struts in the pics also have very thick shaft, which makes for a more robust suspension

lowering is not the reason. lowering on road cars is often just a cosmetic improvement. suspensions have a geometry that must be retained. lowering more than a few mms usually upset completely all the suspension geometry and CV joints lifespan. not to mention the stresses on the bodyshell.

also adjustable hydraulics dont have much sense. hydraulics must be adjusted when changing spring rate or car weight. but there is only one narrow good setting for a given excursion, spring rate and vehicle weight.
motorcycles have ususlla fully adjustable rear suspensions because the payload can vary greatly, from one skinny rider to two fat assed ones.
some little adjustement can be useful to compesate the shock aging.
some aftermarket shocks are adjustable sipmly because they fit on different cars, so the manufacturers dont have to produce too many types of shocks.

gm

You can fit adj (pillow) mounts to non coilover setups aswell.

The goemetry you refer to isnt a perfect setting. Its arrived at through alot of testing on alot of surfaces, and is there to provide good handling with compramise.

You can change the std geometry settings to reach a far better handling car, but less of a compramise and possibly harder for different drivers to get one with.

And the narrow settings you talk about.....there are many settings you can run and, to what is best depends on what either results in the fastest lap time, or what the driver is most comfortable with. All you are trying to do is to keep the wheel in contact with the ground, whilst not deviating off due to irreguarities on the surface.

There is plenty you can do to result in a car you prefer the handling to, but when were talking competitive setups, then having precise knolwdge on what your doing is important.

With modern tyres, its typically most important to keep even contact and temperture spread, so damping rates/springs rates, geometry cahnge with roll and corner weights/diagonal weight percentages all require a totally different estup.

F1 now, especially with michelin, design around the tyre....it provides most of the suspension and all of the grip. Teams runnin michelines are told that they HAVE to adheire to a specific theory or flat running with no camber change to acheive peak performance. Unlike bridgestone whos tyres are more profiled and can run with camber....michelines are square and designed to run square.

I wouldnt get to fuddled up worry about suspension, as you can always improve for your intended purpose.