Converting from 1.8 to 2.0 bottom end

[marcus cliogtt]

I can get hold of a 98 Megane 2.0 bottom end for £300 it has done 44k with FRSH, firstly is it worth the money? He said it will come with the starter motor and other bits forgot to ask about the gear box!! Can I use my existing box? What else does the bottom end need to come with so I do not need to buy it at a later date? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers Marcus.

 

[wongy008]

it will go on but it needs fetling, nick hill at hill power does this converision as its easier to get hold of megane bottoms then genuine willy bottoms, your box will be fine but u mayaswelll take the opputunity to change the clutch while its all out,

get it doen you wont regret it

wongy

 

[marcus cliogtt]

Any idea what his labour charge would be to fit the engine, might go for a different clutch but had it changed about 10k ago, I would need him to swap the head over as well. Any ideas?

 

[Matbrown]

Call him on 01530 273633 or mail from http://www.hillpower.co.ukwww.hillpower.co.uk



Mat.

 

[lofty]

dont pay more then £400,

you should replace everything while its out and easy to get at, i.e cam belt, tensioners, mounts, etc etc, allow £200 for these bits from GSF, and the williams chip is about £150 form Hill power, the starter is about £90, so you could have the whole lot done for a grand which is alot cheaper then paying doemeone to do it completly, although it worth bearing in mind the hill power conversion includes a box, clutch, ported and gas flowed head, the relivant ECU etc etc, its is cheap when you consider whats involved

 

[Matbrown]

Lofty,

The HP conversion does NOT include a gearbox, clutch or modified head!

They are all extra if you want them doing.



Mat.

 

[marcus cliogtt]

Anyone fancy posting a list of everything that I would need to buy before the engine swap took place and any useful things that I could take of the Megane? I am trying to do this on a tight budget!! And one more question what have people told there Insurance companies?

 

[Matbrown]

 

[marcus cliogtt]

As i thought!!!

 

[coolspot007007]

Nick Hill posted something about doing this conversion aparently something, possibly the crank will hit something unless a bit is ground out for it, as this differs on the F7P. try doing a search throught the topics. Other than that you need a Willy/1.9 diesel crank, 2L starter, bottom end, chip. Also the willy has 32mm valves i think, 16v has 30? I asked Nick last time i was down at HP about the 16v box he said itd be ok, i assume youd lose the top end speed of the 2L tho. If you think all this is too much hassle ill gladly take the bottom end if youre not interested. As for insurance apart from the starter motor thered be no signs it was a 2L as its almost the same engine with different bor and stroke.

 

[Nick Read]

So basically if you get hold of the bottom end complete including the starter then its a straight bolt on to the 1.8 head? Then all you need is the Willy ECU. The 1.8 head should fit nicely shouldnt it, no chance of the valves touching anything they shouldnt, cos the Willy head runs more lift anyway doesnt it? What about the engine mounts though, obviously a Willy block would go straight in. But what about the MEgane 2.0. Ive never seen one in the flesh, is it physically the same on the outside, with the same connections for ancillaries, mounts etc?

 

[marcus cliogtt]

This is exactly the replys I wanted, cheers for this I will have a good think about it tommorrow, probably give Nick Hil a call on monday and ask his advice as well but I supect he will ony confirm what is written here!!

Keep on posting though the more info the better!!

Thanks Marcus.

 

[coolspot007007]

Right heres some help from an old post of Loftys. Theres a few of us on here who wanted to do this conversion, Lofty, Me and SimonNOS, but loftys got a proper F7R now,AFAIK SimonNOS is doing it as a winter project. Anyway heres what Jimbo said...

" to convert an f7p to williams spec, ur gunna need: williams/1.9 diesel crankshaft= by from a scrappy standard 16v rods= got em already clio willaims pistons(82.7mm)= 75quid each from ren clio williams piston rings=35quid from ren(not sure whether thats a set or not) optional 32mm inlet valves(30mm standard) clio williams camshafts(longer duration, and .6mm increased valve lift) if ur boring out the standard f7p block, u can use the existing 1.8 starter motor, no need for the willy one. also the 150bhp f7r used in the megne was a 1.8 head on a 2litre bottom end. had the power, but not the torque of the williams lump. no need to change the sumps over, tho its advised to stick in a new oil ump for safety."

That post was about taking the F7P to F7R spec so if you have the bottom end youre not going to need the very expensive Willy pistons and crank. Nick Hill posted...

"Just to help you with a few of your dilemas. If you use the 1764cc block with a 93mm stroke crank (Williams) you do not need to change the starter motor, but you will have to machine the inside of the block away where the big ends rotate. Because of the extra throw on the crank the rod ends are now further from the crank centre and will hit the wall of the block. On a pucka 2.0l block there are ridges in the block to allow for this which stick out on the side hence the reason for needing the smaller bodied starter from a Williams. You do not need to change the inlet valve sizes for the engine to perform well but if you want to you can. They are no more than a std set of inlets from Renault but this still does not make them cheap. There is enough meat on the std valve seat to recut to the 32mm inlet.

I always forget if youre just changing the bottom end you dont need the F7R starter you use the 16v one, doh! Where abouts are you in case you dont want to go through with the 2L bottom end, cos ill definately take it!

 

[marcus cliogtt]

I am in Welwyn Garden City in Hertfordshire, problem is I am new to this area and finding a decent mechanic may be difficult, I will find out if the bloke has got any more if you want? How much is a bottom end like this worth then? Do you reckon any decent garage could do the job? Sorry for all the questions just want to make sure I know what me and my bank balance are letting ourselves in for!!

 

[Infinicar]

Always budget for more than you work out. These things do cost more than you first think.

When Nick does the 2l conversion he partially rebuilds the engines and puts new clutches and belts on. No modifying tho.

Paul

 

[coolspot007007]

I agree, definately gonna cost more than you think, Ive already got a spare head so the engine can be assembled, worked on, then swapped for current one, this seems the best option if you dont want your car off the road for any great periods of time. Im not just looking for a straight 2L though, im after Willy uprated cams, stage 2 head/manifolds, 32mm valves, balanced everything, uprated pumps/belts/clutch/gaskets where possible, remappable ECU and cash willing, maybe nitrous on top.

The 2L conversion at Hill Power is good value for what you get and is almost certainly the best work youll get. But if you find the right person who can do the work you can source the parts yourself and save a fair bit, like Red16 did.

As for who can do it, Renault specialist is your best bet, or at least someone with a fair amount of experience with engine rebuilds and internal mods. If you get the bottom end to go on and everything up and working it should be a straight swap, for your current engine, mounts and electrics being the same, i hope!

Im definately interested if you can get hold of another one.

 

[marcus cliogtt]

I have got to give him a call tommorrow morning so I will ask him then. Cheers for the advice, think I am going to go for it and put it in the garage until after Xmas and then chuck it in!

 

[lofty]

i fuked right off, i typed a big reply and the stupid thing was lost when i tried to post, (not the first time i have had this problem!)

its not a difficult job, you certainly dont need a re-mappable ECU, any mechanic worth thier weight in straw could do the swap, provided they can fit a cam belt properly it is straight forward,

its only 2 days work so the car wont be off the road for long,

i paid £330 for the parts for mine but some of these were no essential and could proably come doen too £250, all bar the exhaust gasket came from GSF,

£160 for the willy chip,

the swap was going to be £200 but we had some trouble with the box and i got him to do a few other bits and bobs so i gave him £300 cash in the end, in my opion dont go to a garage where they do your normal servicing etc, got to a smaller backstreet one man band type place, because its just labout intensive ratehr then complecated so the labour rate is crucial for good value,

i though the HP swap included more, oops, i was only guessing from matt browns spec, never mind,

i would budget for £850 on top of the purchase price of the short block, and i would also say the £300 isnt exactly giving it away and the milage and FRSH flannel isnt worth considering, there is very little you can do to prove it, so basicaly dont fall over your self to buy it at £300 but its not a bad price, depends what it come with, if hes taken the oil pump and sump etc etc off then there is more to swap on yours,

Remeber the labour was cheaper on mine beacuse it was a straight swap for a complete williams engine out of a write-off, so dont expect to fine someone who will swap the head and dropit in for that soort of money,

the way i justify it all is buy saying it adds value to the car, i.e you spend £1k but the value of the car goes up by £800 so it has only cost you £200, its might not be true but it works for me!

good luck

you wont regret it

 

[maciek]

so...

again, cos i didn;t really get it...

basic version (the cheapest ?) of the upgrade will result in engine consisting of:

original F7P + bare 2.0 litre block (from F7R only? or maybe sthg else too?) + crank from F7R (willy / mailto:meg@150">meg@150) or from 1.9 diesel + pistons with rings to fit F7R block (=willy or strong meg). + mapping (doesnt need to be a standalone...)

what else... from what lofty said i understand, that oil pump, water pump doesnt differ i can simply swap them from what i already have, what about mounts and sensors?

then - what about the g.box - lofty said "we had some trouble with the box"

and still no 100% answer about the starter when i change the block.

is this all please? what to expect from such an engine?

 

[coolspot007007]

I think you are limited to the F7R block, you need the crank, then a chip to suit, id personnaly prefer a remapable ECU. All the ancilliary stuff should be ok but i want to change em cos the engine will be out. No definate answer on the box im afraid, the 16v is closer ratio AFAIK and doesnt have the longer 5th of the Willy/megane/19 diesel. Definitive answer about the starter is up there, Nick Hills own words...

"If you use the 1764cc block with a 93mm stroke crank (Williams) you do not need to change the starter motor,but you will have to machine the inside of the block away where the big ends rotate. Because of the extra throw on the crank the rod ends are now further from the crank centre and will hit the wall of the block."

If Jimbo is correct and the megane was a 1.8 head with 2L bottom end then you should expect 150BHP.

 

[lofty]

i think we are getting confused here,

there are two ways of going to 2 ltrs, both need the willy chip (£160)

A - buy a 2 ltr bottom end from a F7R (either willy or early megan 2.0 16v) then you just need the starter, (the crank is all part of the bottom end, its not simply the crank casing your buying!)

B- or converting the 1800, you need lots of bits, the long throw crank, which i think would need balancing if it was from a diesel (diesel 5k limiter!) also the williams pistons (£80 each) plus new rings, while its out you will replace all the bearings and gaskets (£>250) and get the inside of the block machiened to allow the crank to clear £???

option B is a tricky one, if your pretty competent with the spanners and can get the machiening done cheap then it would be reasonablly cheap, and if you were going to re-build the 2ltr then its about the same price, but if your paying a bloke to do everything then its going to get pricey, IMO option A is the one to go for, and IMHO while the head is off go for the bigger inlet valves, it know its a bit of a unfair comparision but.. my mate had a 2.0 16v megan and it wasnt a patch on my willy engined 16v, all engines make thier power in the head, once youve gone to 2ltrs the head will be the limiting factor and labour intensive to get off so do it all at once, money permitting

and i keep forgetting to ring my insurance to let them know,

 

[marcus cliogtt]

Where did you have yours fitted Lofty, and I dont suppose you have a contact number?

 

[marcus cliogtt]

Does not look like the credit card is going to let me do it after all!

 

[lofty]

buy it and save it for a rainy day,

remeber you will have a fair few bit left over to sell when the swap is done,

i couldn;t afford it but its worth it in the long run.

if your going to do it sooner or later you might as well do it now and get the use out of it, rather then get some money in a years time, so the conversion and then sell it in a years time, get 2 years use, in theory of course!

 

[marcus cliogtt]

I am still swaying towards it, I had a price of £450 in labour to put it in, but that included refurbing my gearbox while the engine was out!! So that is not too bad but then I need to get all the other bits and pieces like the chip and the other parts you mentioned, also when I rang the scrap yard suddenly the price had changed to £450 delivered!!

 

[Nick Read]

Sorry to resurrect this thread again (maybe we should put together a definitive Cliosport FAQ on this engine swap?) but Ive gone from being merely interested in the 2.0 swap, to thinking it could be happening to my valver in the next week or so. Thats cos my engine could be well and truly blown now so I might as well make it 2 litre while its in pieces anyway.

At present Ive got a Stage 2 Hill Power F7P head (Piper 270 cams, verniers, HP chip, worked-on head and manifolds), so Im in no hurry to junk that as long as its still in one piece. The 1.8 bottom end is gonna go though, but in the last year or so, the idlers/pulleys that were knackered have been changed, the sump is brand new, the clutch and gearbox are both now Williams as well. So this is what I think has to be done, keeping it as simple as poss - please correct me if Im wrong, because I dont know how to do anything on my Clio until Ive actually done it with my own hands. And Ive never taken out an engine or dismantled one before! Here goes:

1. Take 1.8 engine and box out of engine bay.

2. Separate gearbox/bottom end/head.

3. Find 2.0 F7R bottom end including starter and replace anything that needs replacing, swap my existing brand new sump onto this 2.0 bottom.

4. Change clutch if it needs doing.

5. Put gearbox/2.0 bottom end/1.8 head together and drop the whole lot into engine bay with new belts. Wiring and engine mounts should be identical. Only difference will be the starter which came with the 2.0 bottom end anyway.

6. Fire it up using a Willy ECU - or do I use my existing one programmed for the Stage 2 1.8 lump and just lower the rev limit (I can put in a 6500 limit that will remain a totally separate system from the main ECU anyway and itll cost me nothing).

Im sure this is riddled with mistakes, so if youve already done the 2.0 swap, or youre about to do it as a winter project, tell me whats what!

Cheers!

oh, a few other things! Im gonna have to find the right bottom end - looking through the specs of the different 2.0 lumps, Im a bit muddled over the versions. As far as I can see there is an F7R-710 which was in the 2.0 16v Meganes and the same as the Williams F7R. Then there seems to be an F7R-714 (whats the difference?). Then theres another Megane 2.0 lump (F7R?) which only has 140bhp but seems to have slightly more torque than the Willy original...is that the one with VVT or IDE or whatever its supposed to be called? What bottom end should I be looking for? What is the difference between the 1.8 and 2.0 head? Just the size of the valves and the cams? Is it worth going for 32mm valves rather than 30mm and how is this done? Is it just a straight swap or will more material have to come off the valve seats? Does 2mm make that much difference? Also I might end up having to buy an entire 2.0 lump; scrappies are sometimes funny about breaking a complete engine. Would I be better to keep the 2.0 head and dump the 1.8 if Ive got a 2.0 anyway? Could I reuse the cams? Should I reuse them?

 

[jimbo1]

nick, ur gunna want the early megane 2litre 16v utpo 98-99 i beleive, before facelift engine or the clio williams lump. i wudnt worry about 32mm valves, cus they cost like 90quid each or watever they r from ren, and not really worth the power "upgrade". keep ur money and spend on more nitrous.

ur best bet wud be to get a 2itre megane engine as these r new! sell the megane head, fit ur 1.8 stage 2 head, use the 2litre injectors. to handle the power, get urself a gt turbo uprated clutch from andyspares-these handle big power. these r the same clutches as ktec and bb use, but from andys they r half the price. ray on ren sport is using it, and it works a treat.

with the money returned from selling the megane head, invest in a uni-chip or similar system. get the nitrous and fueling spot on. ud make big big big power then. oh, and full throttle gear shift wud work wonders as well!!!!!

job dun

jimbo

 

[lofty]

there is a uni chip for sale in my local free ads, £150 and it suggest its interchangable with any fuel injected car.

you would be best with the williams stage 2 chip ither wise you will be underfueling,

the injectors are the same, but you might need to adjust/replace the fuel pressure regulator valve, but i guess you have got a PBV anyway so just turn it up,

starter of course,

IMHO i would say that the worked head would be better then a standard willy head anyway. but on the other hand if your going to do the bigger inlet valves you might as well do them while the head is off to save on labour, im sure BenR will do it cheaply anyway,

then its would effectivily be full stage 2 williams spec,

of course if your lucky to find a compleate williams engine then just use it complete, this saves you all the work of taking the head off and setting it all back up.

try Paul Mitchell he has got a complete willy engine for sale

 

[Matbrown]

But Nick hasnt won the lottery!?!



Mat.

 

[Nick Read]

Hmmm some great advice there, I knew I could count on you lot! So heres another one for you - am I greatly mistaken or are the Piper 270 cams for a 16v pretty much the same as the standard Willy cams? And then the Piper 270s for the Willy are like the 285s for the 16v?

So at the moment then the plan is find a complete Megane 2.0 lump, flog the 2.0 head and use my 1.8 Stage 2 head, and run it on a Stage 2 Willy chip. Im still not sure whats what about the injectors though, are the 2.0 injectors bigger than the 1.8 or not?

One last thing, Mat, is your super flying machine just basic 2.0 spec, standard head and everything? I bloody hope so cos I want one as quick as yours just for everyday driving!

 

[lofty]

injectors are definitly OK,

cams = dunno!

 

[Nick Read]

So if Im shopping around for a pair of wilder cams to go in instead of the 270s, can I now start looking at cams intended for a Williams/Megane F7R lump rather than a 1.8, even though Im still using the 1.8 head? Probably sounds stupid, but I dont know!

 

[coolspot007007]

Jimbo said in the other thread (taking 1.8 to 2l spec) that the megane used a 1.8 head with the 2L bottom end so maybe use some wilder Megane cams?

 

[Matbrown]

Nick,

Ive got a modified head with Piper cams on mine.



Mat.

 

[N.D.Hill]

Nick. Piper bp270 cams for the 1764cc engine are slightly different to the Williams std cam but not a lot. If you want a wilder cam for your engine you will have to scource cams from a Williams and have them reprofiled. The megane head is different from the 1764 engine It runs 32mm valves but uses a cam profile similar to a std 1764 so dont bother with them as they will only give you what you already have.

 

[Nick Read]

Cheers for the answers guys! So in other words, the megane head is pretty much the same as mine except with bigger valves and the standard cam is roughly the same as my 270s. So I might as well use my existing worked-on head.

And if I read it right, for my 2.0 bottom and 1.8 head, I *will* be looking for Williams cams rather than 1.8 cams? Looking at the specs, the grinds for the two different lumps look roughly the same in timing/duration but the Willy cams always have higher lift. Can someone confirm that it is definitely cams designed for a Williams that I will want? Sorry if this sounds stupid but I really dont know! I keep thinking about putting higher lift cams in and finding that as soon as I turn over the engine the valves and pistons are gonna touch!

 

[BenR]

when putting in a new cam you will ALWAYS have to check for valve to piston clearance........

 

[Nick Read]

Well thats what Im worried about Ben...I dont know whether the lift of the cam is to fit the design of the head or of the bottom end. So what Im saying is this, lets assume you could use the 1.8 head with a whole range of bottom ends, a 2.0, a 3.0 and a 4.0. The bigger the capacity the more lift they run. Now would a cam to suit a 1.8 *have* to be used for all of those different capacities, or would you be using a cam to suit the bottom end, ie a lot higher lift for the 4.0? So back to what I was saying, is the physical fit of a cam designed for the head or the bottom end? Will a cam suited to this 4.0 bottom end be *too big* to run in the 1.8 head?

 

[Pysco]

Nick,

The cams are not designed to go with the blocks as there is no change in where the pistons are at TDC, in the F7 engines at TDC the pistons are flush with the top of the block, in the F7R to overcome the 10mm longer stroke the pistons have a 5mm smaller pin to crown hieght.

Higher lift cams are good for power gains, its just a case of timing them so that the pistons are not gonna touch the valves, but if you know the exact specs of the cams you running it aint too hard.

 

[BenR]

well, its all variable!

ona 2ltr 3ltr and 4ltr bottom end, to use the same head, it would assume the same bore.....thus meanign stroke has to increase. And if it came up to the same level @ TDC then teh CR would be substantially higer!!!

do the willy pistons have deeper valve cutouts? and if you fit them, it will have a lower CR.

The design of the cam is not around that of the head or the bottom end, but what sort of power charateristics you want.

on a longer stroke crank, the pistons is effectievly moving at a higher speend than a shorter stroke crank. Both running teh same RPM of course. Becasue there is mroe ground to cover in the same time.

This means that there is a larger "window" for the valves to reach a higer lift before the piston reaches TDC as they ahev to travel further. but they have to get there faster and get back to the seat faster. I dont know if the ramp angles of the willy and valver cams are the same.....but this alone might cater for the increase in lift alone. Or if timing positions are different, then you can advance or r****d an inlet or exhaust cam to open just as the piston is passing TDC.....as long as the ramp angle doesnt mean the inlet opens so fast that it catches up with the piston moving down and slaps it in the process.

Timing in a twin cam engine is much harder thana single cam one as its harder to set the LCA to get equal lift on overlap......infinate variables to advancing or retarding either cam.....ooer..