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cup racer sadev sequential gearboxes
- Thread starter Martin_172
- Start date
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- Tags
- cup
I was having a look for a phase 1 172 cup car, but couldnt find any
I would love a sadev box for a track day car. Even if it doesn't give much in performance its just having one and using it, flat up shifts FTW
there's about 500 of them across the uk/europe!! (all mk2 cup racers are phs1 172 based, they had to all swap bodywork when the phs2 was launched)
well your not looking in the right place, theres an st75 sat in a certain clio in our showroom so there :rasp:
and geartronics* do a flatshift box of tricks awesome kit!!
*spelling
M
mini-valver
Did you buy it fully rebuilt, and a rebuilt diff though or was it a shagger? Spon new, they're around 6k, then you need linkages, mounts, release bearing (unless you can use a mechanical one which AFAIK you cant), flatshift ECU, flatshift switch (if it doesnt come with one) etc etc.
flatshift works off the gear display on the dash
and the box was as good as new, dont know its it was rebuilt or a spare box off someone, parmer sport possibally... but by the time you have got spare driveshafts and things like that the price of things rack up
and i have been in and driven the car and i would say its nicer to used than standard gearbox, racing clutch is rather nice for some reason too :S
M
mini-valver
Nice? Whaaaattt! Tried driving at slow speeds? It's all chug chug chug, whiiiinnnnnneeee, CLUNK second, lol.
M
mini-valver
I drive them most weekends and up and down the road once a week, it'd be f**king horrible day to day!
superbenji88
ClioSport Club Member
BMW M135i
but he wont be using it day to day, weekend toy
To clarify as there seems to be some confusion:
Flat shift is slang for SWL (shift without lift) which is as it sounds, it allows the driver to instigate an up change without lifting the throttle or disengaging drive to the gearbox via the clutch.
With a dog engagement gearbox all that is required to allow the shift to take place is some form of sufficent torque reduction. The simplest of which is to cut the ignition for a preset period of time. This however is very nasty and wastes a lot of 'time' (time being the period in which the car is not accelerating or is decelerating). For the most part in a modern race car you will use a measured amount of ignition r****d to reduce torque loading on the dogs to the point where the next gear will engage.
The dogs however require a certain amount of preload to ensure a succesful shift with the minimum of 'cut'. Idealy you would strain gauge some part of the gear linkage for this, via this a voltage signal would be supplied to whatever electronics was controlling the shift - at a preset voltage the torque reduction strategy would be instigated allowing the shift to take place. The reason to use a load cell/strain gauge over a simple switch is that it ensures preload is present and the shift is certainly required before instigating the 'cut'/gear change request.
In more advanced systems you would use a closed loop gear control strategy which would not only read load cell voltage but also barrel positon and in some cases drive shaft torque to ensure the shift had taken place succesfuly. If it didnt there would be a retry strategy in place.
With a Sadev ST75 as per the X85 it is possible to fully complete (i.e. from the point where torque is reduced to the point where torque is reapplied) an upshift in around 45MS even with mechanical actuation. With a paddle system running closed loop gear control an upshift can be completed even quicker, in around 25 - 35MS. In very high level motorsport using Moog actuated shift, either via direct shift fork actuation or in some cases Moog rotary valves directly controling barrel position on a very, very expensive gearbox an upshift can be fully completed in around 12 - 15MS.
Hutchie - the gear display has nothing to do with instigating the torque reduction - it is mostly driven from a raw barrel position signal. Oh and Geartronics is the very bottom end of shift control, certainly not awesome! As for Sadevs in Clio's to ensure a succesful upshift the technique is to wail on the lever as hard as you can as quickly as you can - they use a simple make/break switch on the box housing to detect an upshift as such you need to ensure the switch is activated by the lever to ensure a succesful shift. There is no techniqe to 'smoothing' this or making it road'able as all torque reduction is controlled by the ECU. On the Mk2 Cup racer via a full cut and on the X85 via a measured amount of ignition r****d.
As for running one in a road car. With around 8K of kit I can built a paddle shift one that'll drive like an OEM car and all you'll need a clutch for is pulling away. 10K and you won't even need a clutch pedal. It'll still be bloody noisey though!! If you go manualy actuated you will never have a smooth change at low RPM and will always end up nudging dogs around to get reverse/first.
Cheers
M
Flat shift is slang for SWL (shift without lift) which is as it sounds, it allows the driver to instigate an up change without lifting the throttle or disengaging drive to the gearbox via the clutch.
With a dog engagement gearbox all that is required to allow the shift to take place is some form of sufficent torque reduction. The simplest of which is to cut the ignition for a preset period of time. This however is very nasty and wastes a lot of 'time' (time being the period in which the car is not accelerating or is decelerating). For the most part in a modern race car you will use a measured amount of ignition r****d to reduce torque loading on the dogs to the point where the next gear will engage.
The dogs however require a certain amount of preload to ensure a succesful shift with the minimum of 'cut'. Idealy you would strain gauge some part of the gear linkage for this, via this a voltage signal would be supplied to whatever electronics was controlling the shift - at a preset voltage the torque reduction strategy would be instigated allowing the shift to take place. The reason to use a load cell/strain gauge over a simple switch is that it ensures preload is present and the shift is certainly required before instigating the 'cut'/gear change request.
In more advanced systems you would use a closed loop gear control strategy which would not only read load cell voltage but also barrel positon and in some cases drive shaft torque to ensure the shift had taken place succesfuly. If it didnt there would be a retry strategy in place.
With a Sadev ST75 as per the X85 it is possible to fully complete (i.e. from the point where torque is reduced to the point where torque is reapplied) an upshift in around 45MS even with mechanical actuation. With a paddle system running closed loop gear control an upshift can be completed even quicker, in around 25 - 35MS. In very high level motorsport using Moog actuated shift, either via direct shift fork actuation or in some cases Moog rotary valves directly controling barrel position on a very, very expensive gearbox an upshift can be fully completed in around 12 - 15MS.
Hutchie - the gear display has nothing to do with instigating the torque reduction - it is mostly driven from a raw barrel position signal. Oh and Geartronics is the very bottom end of shift control, certainly not awesome! As for Sadevs in Clio's to ensure a succesful upshift the technique is to wail on the lever as hard as you can as quickly as you can - they use a simple make/break switch on the box housing to detect an upshift as such you need to ensure the switch is activated by the lever to ensure a succesful shift. There is no techniqe to 'smoothing' this or making it road'able as all torque reduction is controlled by the ECU. On the Mk2 Cup racer via a full cut and on the X85 via a measured amount of ignition r****d.
As for running one in a road car. With around 8K of kit I can built a paddle shift one that'll drive like an OEM car and all you'll need a clutch for is pulling away. 10K and you won't even need a clutch pedal. It'll still be bloody noisey though!! If you go manualy actuated you will never have a smooth change at low RPM and will always end up nudging dogs around to get reverse/first.
Cheers
M
superbenji88
ClioSport Club Member
BMW M135i
sounds like fun
Found this, id have to make it look like a phase 1 though
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1086128.htm
Found this, id have to make it look like a phase 1 though
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1086128.htm
Shed.
sadav boxes are quite good to take to bits yourself tbh
They whine like mad lol. Ive been in a MK2 cupracer and it wasnt as loud as those vids might have you think, but they are loud. I could live with one, because i think the sound of straight cut gears is better than sex.
Clio 220 lpg
Icarus Hutchie was is in volved with the Rally car and is right when he says that the flat shift is conected to the display, however he failed to say that it is also conected to a switch on the front of the gear linkage as you will know. In our eyes the gear change is almost seamless with gear change taken within 70ms (awesome!), the geartronics kit reconises when it has engaged gear by reading a signal from the barrel that is connected to the dash display so it may be quicker depending how qiuck my arm pulls the lever. If you can get a paddle shift kit that will let you change gear in 25-35ms then that is even more awesome! but how much will that cost and in rallying a bigger set of balls would gain me more time.
M
mini-valver
You can even use a reverse switch as a flatshift cut to save £££!
Gearchanges are seamless when you're above 5k RPM, below that and you have to be steady on the clutch or it WILL clunk. Aside from that, when you let off at slow speeds its like being a learner driver again. Day to day, I wouldnt bother. Even as a weekend toy, if you get stuck in traffic you'll hate it. Track cars, they're fantastic and will take seconds out of your laptime but unless you;re competing, does that really matter???
Get a straight cut box built if you like the whine.
Gearchanges are seamless when you're above 5k RPM, below that and you have to be steady on the clutch or it WILL clunk. Aside from that, when you let off at slow speeds its like being a learner driver again. Day to day, I wouldnt bother. Even as a weekend toy, if you get stuck in traffic you'll hate it. Track cars, they're fantastic and will take seconds out of your laptime but unless you;re competing, does that really matter???
Get a straight cut box built if you like the whine.
superbenji88
ClioSport Club Member
BMW M135i
who makes them for clio's
182cup & 172 racecar
Yes
Icarus Hutchie was is in volved with the Rally car and is right when he says that the flat shift is conected to the display, however he failed to say that it is also conected to a switch on the front of the gear linkage as you will know. In our eyes the gear change is almost seamless with gear change taken within 70ms (awesome!), the geartronics kit reconises when it has engaged gear by reading a signal from the barrel that is connected to the dash display so it may be quicker depending how qiuck my arm pulls the lever. If you can get a paddle shift kit that will let you change gear in 25-35ms then that is even more awesome! but how much will that cost and in rallying a bigger set of balls would gain me more time.
I'm not having a pop at your car but geartronics is not a good shift system. When you say 'flat shift' above do you mean the GCU?
In any modern well engineered GCU the cut will be managed on a torque reduction level. For the most part Geartronics does not perform any torque reduction is merely cuts torque output completely for what it decides is the right amount of time. This is really inefficent and is actualy more wearing to components than simply reducing torque in a controled manner.
I spend about half my life dealing with gear control is some way or another. Quite a few of the cars in France last weekend were running stuff I've been involved in one way or another and its something I'm [Geek LOL] really quite pasionate about as its incredibly easy to make a system which works, incredibly difficult to make a system which works well.
Let me put it this way if you initiate a shift and it fails what does the Geartronics system do - drops to a preset strat mostly? About half the gear control calibration I do includes startegies for missed and failed shifts which also read rate of barrel rotation, linkage load etc. etc. to ensure a shift completes even if something has gone wrong enroute. A clunk and the rev limiter is not an acceptable failure mode, especialy as at this point you generaly have no choice but to lift the throttle as an effective torque reduction on the rev limiter with a cut only system isn't going to happen.
You don't need paddles to get 25MS upshifts, some of the BTCC cars are getting close to those times with manualy actuated systems!
Basicaly just gutting the spark for 40, 60 or 80ms or so is not pukka gear control in my eyes LOL
Drop me a PM and we'll have a chat about some stuff to make the box on your rally car last longer, shift quicker and reduce temps.
Cheers
M
Clio 220 lpg
No probs mate, I need to save up, I thinks!
The new GCU is pretty good but I don't think its out for consumer purchase yet? The gear displays, load cells, cut off switches etc. are good but equaly good products are available elsewhere for less.
I'm doing an OEM project using Sadev boxes at the moment and after analysis are using someone elses gearcontrol stuff rather than Sadevs.
Cheers
M
I'm doing an OEM project using Sadev boxes at the moment and after analysis are using someone elses gearcontrol stuff rather than Sadevs.
Cheers
M
Just for the sake of listening to a bit of whining, this is my fully straight cut mini on the rolling road, when the revs get to about 3k and he floors it you can hear the roar of the weber and exhaust but i assure you that gearbox is deafening!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RSwP8rTVFA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RSwP8rTVFA
172 phII
A friend of mine is involved in hill-climb racing in his clio I 1.8 16v. So far he had a standard gearbox with shorter final ratio and now he is looking for an upgrade towards a sequential gearbox.
He is already running a SA ECU (VEMS I believe) and basically the whole car is up to his wants besides the gearbox.
What option would suit him best and how much would that cost to get a sequential gearbox on his race car?
Cheers
He is already running a SA ECU (VEMS I believe) and basically the whole car is up to his wants besides the gearbox.
What option would suit him best and how much would that cost to get a sequential gearbox on his race car?
Cheers
172 phII
clio cup race car
I finally got my race car driving properly today after converting it to RHD , the sadev box is awesome , our trading est is nice and quiet on a saturday afternoon so had a real good play in it
172 phII
Cheers
