Cup shocks VS the world

[JimF]

Right then. A suspension upgrade is required. I'm currently on KYB shocks and Apex springs. They were fitted to the car when I bought it but I've gone off the idea of dying upside down in a field on fire. Also I suspect one shock is weeping oil. However it looks amazing. The ride height is spot on.
The car is not a daily. It will be used 50:50 B road blasts and track days. I'm not a track demon but I've done a couple in the past.
I'm thinking of settling on cup shocks and springs. Probably Cooksport or Eibach but I'm open to suggestions. I understand I won't get the same ride height as now but sadly that is a bitter pill I must swallow. I had considered coilovers, but most coilovers I've looked at under £700 have the overriding verdict of "too soft for track work" or generally poor quality.
My question is... Does that make cup shocks harder than say, B14 coilovers or Gaz GHAs, or are the cup dampers just superior in general? Am I not comparing apples with apples?
I'm not really one to scrimp, but I also don't want to spend money where it's not needed when I could spend it on a rear ARB or more importantly track time and tuition.

Is the cup setup with Cooksport springs really that good?....

 

[andyj007]

interested in this too.... anyone?

 

[Stay Puft]

I have eibach sportlines and cup shocks. I've only done one track day and other than my crap driving it did well in all the corners etc.

Sits like this..

 

[Kosy]

I have the same as Davy. I wouldn't want to go any lower tbh for a road car.

Needs to be combined with good tyres and geo of course.

 

[Budgie]

Cooksports are too firm for me. I'm a Proline man, all the way.

BTW, strut brace is on it's way to you today mate.

 

[JimF]

Ah cheers mate!

 

[alistairolsen]

I recently removed Vmaxx coilovers from my track dar (came on it) and fitted cup dampers and eibachs and I have to say, for the road I imagine they are the perfect compromise, but on track there is no doubt that stiffer would be better IMHO.

 

[JimF]

See thats what I thought, but also wondered if a rear ARB would help with roll and still keep compliant suspension that actually did the job...

 

[coverman]

I have the rear ARB with standard suspension on my Cup with purpose of reducing understeer, which it has achieved in the slow speed very tight corners encountered in Autosolos.The transient roll oversteer on lift off is still present, very useful in Autosolos because it negates the need to use the hasndbrake.
I did meet a non-competing 182 owning clown at an Autosolo who claimed that his car didnt understeer at all but in fact oversteered, and when I expressed amazement he claimed that it depended on how one drove( he must drive very timidly I guess, lifting off harshly at every corner from slowish entry speeds ).

 

[alistairolsen]

I have a whiteline roll bar on mine set to max stiffness, which makes it very easy to control your corner line on the throttle, but I'd still rather not have the understeer, than just have a good way of fixing it

 

[Iain C]

I'm on b14s at the moment and they are my favourite of all the setups I've tried. My car is a road car tho.
I think a proper set up is the key. I plan to rebuild mine and take the car to mark fish for set up. It makes a huge difference.
Anything is better than apex springs tho.

 

[GeorgeH]

As far as I am aware new cup shocks and sport lines would be better then a cheap coil over. Especially for road + track use. I have new cup shocks/eibachs/Whiteline RARB. Goes well and OK ride on the road but I don't use mine on track yet.

 

[N4TH4N]

Cooksports are too firm for me. I'm a Proline man, all the way.

BTW, strut brace is on it's way to you today mate.

Another vote here for prolines. Fantastic match with cup shocks imo

 

[Bunta]

Got cooksports and cup dampers on mine and its good on the road but a little soft on track, dont mind as its mainly a road car anyway, just fitted a whiteline which has made a nice difference too. geo is set at -2 deg and 15min toe out on front end and -2 deg parallel toe on the rear.. doesn't get overtaken that much on federal rsr's unless its a mega power evo/impreza

 

[Gus]

I have both Bilstein B14's on one 182 and Cup shocks and Prolines on my daily 182. I would say that the Bilsteins are harder but they have far better compliance for the crap road surfaces we have. Going fast round bends the bilsteins are fantastic. I would have bilsteins on both cars but because of the mileage I do it just doesnt make sense. The prolines and cup shocks are great though. If you can afford it the bilsteins really are much better.

 

[JimF]

Thanks for the info guys. See this is where my confusion is coming from. General consensus is that cup shocks and cooksport springs and great for everything. And general consensus on B14s is they're too soft for track work. Its really difficult trying to get my head around the actual facts.

 

[LeeRS]

Cooksports and standard shocks for me.
Very firm for on the road though.
Hit a pothole and goodbye teeth!

 

[montana]

Thanks for the info guys. See this is where my confusion is coming from. General consensus is that cup shocks and cooksport springs and great for everything. And general consensus on B14s is they're too soft for track work. Its really difficult trying to get my head around the actual facts.

I had this idea too re Cocksports being the best thing since sliced bread, IMO Eibachs are much better when paired with cup shocks.

 

[alistairolsen]

Thanks for the info guys. See this is where my confusion is coming from. General consensus is that cup shocks and cooksport springs and great for everything. And general consensus on B14s is they're too soft for track work. Its really difficult trying to get my head around the actual facts.

I think the point is if you want a budget (£300) solution to fast road and occasional track use, then the cooksports and cup dampers fit the bill well. Not because they're amazing at everything (that's impossible) but because they are acceptable in that combination of circumstances.

Once you bias toward mainly track work, you need to go stiffer and therefore you need to upgrade the dampers, at which point it makes sense to go for coilovers. If youre spending £600+ on coilovers for track, most wouldnt choose the bilsteins as theyre too soft, preferring instead to go for Gaz or AST depending on budget.

 

[andyj007]

cool thread... sorry for jumping in...
so basically take my standard 172...
buy these
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/1405...1=ICEP3.0.0-L&ff12=67&ff13=80&ff14=122&ff19=0
should be better for track use, and the next step up from
4 x cup dampers with cooksports..
what else is required or is this good to bolt straight in?

ta

 

[joytodrive25]

Cooksports are too firm for me. I'm a Proline man, all the way.

Prolines are great for my usage and about as stiff as if wants go on potholed roads. B14s would be tempting for more track work but I love my cup shock and proline setup. Have at look at my project for ride height.

 

[Adam G]

If you like the ride height and can live with the ride on the road, I would just try new Cup shocks at first. Apex get a bad reputation but I had them on the back of mine and @bob the builder has them all round and we have both raced in Tricolore Production Class.
However if you want it setup better for road then go Eibachs.

 

[Kosy]

As far as I am aware new cup shocks and sport lines would be better then a cheap coil over. Especially for road + track use. I have new cup shocks/eibachs/Whiteline RARB. Goes well and OK ride on the road but I don't use mine on track yet.

George, I've got cup dampers and sport lines. Tempted by a Whiteline RARB. Would you recommend?

 

[GeorgeH]

I did a lot of reading into cooksport vs sportline and the general concensous was eibach ride nicer but less drop and cooksport ride not so nice but more drop. Proline ride even better than sportlines but small drop.

So really depends what you're after. I find sport lines offer a decent enough drop to look good and handle well and definitely OK to drive on a daily.

 

[GeorgeH]

George, I've got cup dampers and sport lines. Tempted by a Whiteline RARB. Would you recommend?

Hello mate

Yes I really like mine. I only got it as the tyres rubbed the arches on my old 1.6 and I put it on my sport just because.

So that proves it rolls less. I have noticed it makes it feel like the rear follows the front. Sounds odd but you really notice it when cornering. I'm in Watford and if you are local you are more than welcome to have a ride and see.

 

[Kosy]

Hello mate

Yes I really like mine. I only got it as the tyres rubbed the arches on my old 1.6 and I put it on my sport just because.

So that proves it rolls less. I have noticed it makes it feel like the rear follows the front. Sounds odd but you really notice it when cornering. I'm in Watford and if you are local you are more than welcome to have a ride and see.

Thanks mate. A ride would be nice but I'm a bit far away up in Edinburgh! Think I will take the plunge, can always just sell on if I don't like it.

 

[RS Charlie]

'm on b14s at the moment and they are my favourite of all the setups I've tried. My car is a road car tho.
I think a proper set up is the key. I plan to rebuild mine and take the car to mark fish for set up. It makes a huge difference.
Anything is better than apex springs tho.

Which other setups have you tried?

I'm debating between the following when the time comes:

-Stock suspension from Renault
-Pro-Lines and Cup dampers
-B14s.

I am being swayed to the B14s due to their monotube technology (it is part of the reason for why they are great over speed bumps) and the fact that they are height adjustable.

 

[Iain C]

Standard new set up.
Cup shocks with apex.
Cup shocks with eibach
H&R coil overs
Race land coil overs
B14s
@RS Charlie

 

[JimF]

See thats the thing, the Apex springs just seem to 'not work' as suspension for dealing with bumps. Any instance where you've loaded up the suspension (i.e. longer corners) and then either cross some undulations/broken road surface/small pothole, the car feels very unstable. Enough to make you lose any confidence you've built up over the past few miles. I'm not even talking about driving particularly fast, simply having loaded the suspension on either a long corner or a tightening corner. It could be anything, like worn bushes etc, but it feels like the suspension is not doing it's job and I'm riding on the bumpstops.
I'm probably going to go for cup shocks as I've seen them for well under £200, but I'd hate to faff around fitting these Apex springs to then have the car handle identically.
Also, the most common coilover names are the B14s, BC Racing, Gaz & AST. Now the B14s are regarded as being too soft for track work, BC Racing dont have a great reputation in other fields (i.e. I wouldnt spend £750 on them going from Subaru and BMW reviews), Gaz have more people slating them than rating them, and ASTs are £1200+.

 

[TheEvilGiraffe]

BC Racing were on my track Clio and my Impreza. @MicKPM uses them on his track car as do many others .. Mick sells them .. talk to Mick.

 

[massiveCoRbyn]

The problem you've got is that performance on road and track are very different. If you make it a great car on track, it will be terrible on the road and a good road car will be compromised on track.

My personal view is that I can't understand why anyone would fit coilovers to a road car, unless they take the wheels off every week to thoroughly clean everything. The threads will corrode or get full of crap and, for the amount of times you'd actually adjust them, it just isn't worth the hassle. It's also worth noting that an awful lot of aftermarket suspension is, quite frankly, shite.

If you're going to be doing a lot of your driving on the road, it's better to make the car road friendly. Renault spent an awful lot of time and money making the car ride and handle well on the road, so their bits are probably the most sensible choice. My car is on Eibach Pro springs and I think even they are a bit hard at times to be honest. If I were in your shoes, I would fit all new OEM dampers and maybe Eibach Pro springs. It will be the best set up for the road and the car will still be a lot of fun on the track. If you make the car too focused on track driving, you'll hate driving it on the road, so it's better to compromise and have a good all-rounder.

 

[JimF]

Thanks, thats my plan I reckon. Or something similar. Also, I wont be trying for lap records when I'm on track so a decent road setup should be ok on track. I hope...

 

[McGherkin]

The problem you've got is that performance on road and track are very different. If you make it a great car on track, it will be terrible on the road and a good road car will be compromised on track.

My personal view is that I can't understand why anyone would fit coilovers to a road car, unless they take the wheels off every week to thoroughly clean everything. The threads will corrode or get full of crap and, for the amount of times you'd actually adjust them, it just isn't worth the hassle. It's also worth noting that an awful lot of aftermarket suspension is, quite frankly, shite.

If you're going to be doing a lot of your driving on the road, it's better to make the car road friendly. Renault spent an awful lot of time and money making the car ride and handle well on the road, so their bits are probably the most sensible choice. My car is on Eibach Pro springs and I think even they are a bit hard at times to be honest. If I were in your shoes, I would fit all new OEM dampers and maybe Eibach Pro springs. It will be the best set up for the road and the car will still be a lot of fun on the track. If you make the car too focused on track driving, you'll hate driving it on the road, so it's better to compromise and have a good all-rounder.

This man f**king knows.

 

[massiveCoRbyn]

Thanks, thats my plan I reckon. Or something similar. Also, I wont be trying for lap records when I'm on track so a decent road setup should be ok on track. I hope...

My car is on all standard stuff with Eibach Pro springs and is still brilliant fun on track. as you say, it's not about lap records, just about having fun and a standard car in good nick is more than up to it

 

[Andy93]

I've had b14s and AVOs on my previous Clio. I would agree that b14s are too soft but only once you're quick enough to really push the car hard. The AVOs were a lot better, custom spring rates and adjustable damping.

I'm now back at square one with my current track car, it's all standard bar eibach sportlines and camber bolts set to -2. It handles well but it's annihilating the outer shoulder of the tyres on track. Has anyone else experienced this? I'm looking to find the cheapest solution to the problem as this car is supposed to be "cheap fun" but the bills are starting to roll in already.

 

[Adam G]

Thanks, thats my plan I reckon. Or something similar. Also, I wont be trying for lap records when I'm on track so a decent road setup should be ok on track. I hope...

But it will raise the car. You also said you wanted the height the same.

I do agree with massivewangers but......
A better option maybe Sportlines as they will be in between the Apex and Prolines and behave pretty much the same as the Prolines.

 

[Adam G]

My Cup on BC coilovers:


My Cup on Prolines and Cup shocks:


My 172 on Cup shocks, Sportline front and Apex rear:


bobthebuilder's on Apex:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCkJ45pEUgI5

(Anyone ahead is in a higher class and on coilovers and more power)

 

[JimF]

But it will raise the car. You also said you wanted the height the same.

I do agree with massivewangers but......
A better option maybe Sportlines as they will be in between the Apex and Prolines and behave pretty much the same as the Prolines.

Ah yeah good point. I'd consider the compromise but it does look good!

 

[bob the builder]

as adam said i run 172cup front shocks, 182 cup rears and apex springs. i run the production spec so no power upgrades or lightning but can still mix it with the boys in the higher ranks with all the toys (except the class a boys with engine mods).
the car handles great. there is plenty of other bits you can do to help on track but trackdays are just about having fun. one things for sure there will always be someone with more power,better spec thats faster. just enjoy what you have and learn to use it properly.

 

[JimF]

Great post thank you.