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diesels are the future



  BMW M4; S1000 RR
The Jesus, this is exactly the kind of post I was referring to at the end of my last one.

It's funny how you seem to judge that by g-force, I mean "feel like it's quick".

My current car is by no means fast, but it's faster than 1.6 petrols. So make of that what you will.

If I could afford to buy and insure a scooby, I would buy a Supra..:D

I find it hard to tell whether or not you're kidding in that post. But if I took your pistons out of your engine, what would you have ?
 
cliokhunt said:
The Jesus, this is exactly the kind of post I was referring to at the end of my last one. - my posts are always witty and informative... they may be obtuse and full of bollox, but they are correct and always factual none the less :star: (yes I realise that this contradicts... that's okay, dont worry about it)

It's funny how you seem to judge that by g-force, I mean "feel like it's quick". - what else would you use G-force for, last time I looked a Clio wasn't on equal performance terms to the Euro Fighter ;)

My current car is by no means fast, but it's faster than 1.6 petrols. So make of that what you will. - is it tuned though, I know a man with a 1.6 who will put this to the test and will almost certainly be faster.

If I could afford to buy and insure a scooby, I would buy a Supra..:D - haha, good answer. I'd buy you a medallion and chest wig to go with it too :cool:

I find it hard to tell whether or not you're kidding in that post. But if I took your pistons out of your engine, what would you have ? - erm, a diesel? Is this a trick question? :D

anyway, I'm off to the garage to fill the car up... f**k V-power, I'm putting diesel in for some performance gains :cool:
 
  Clio 172 mk2
F**k diesels..they are everywhere and judging by some of the mad reps driving them, probably aren't even that economical either!

I'm staying with the petrol till the end:D
 
I have been having this dilemma for my next car, heres the situation

20,000 miles per year do i get a MK2 PH2 Clio 172, or a MK5 golf GT TDI 140 (remaped)

Considering costs? i will save alot on fuel in the golf and im sure its more reliable although the car would cost more.

Any ideas?
 
MElliottUK said:
20,000 miles per year do i get a MK2 PH2 Clio 172, or a MK5 golf GT TDI 140 (remaped)

Considering costs? i will save alot on fuel in the golf and im sure its more reliable although the car would cost more.
Do the calcualtion I'd see what the costs are you'll loose a fair bit buying a new car.
I like the Golf but 20k isn't many miles so the cost of a Golf might not work out. Infact it might pay for the extra tyres etc you'll go though in the Clio.
 
FredYozzasport said:
diseasels suck
You know what they say about women who suck good.

TheJesus said:
diesels are the future... so much so that Ferrari are ditching the V8's in favour of the vastly superior oil burner... you heard it here first...
Lambo have a diesel in testing (ok its for there race but but still) Lotus had one in testing. MErc are making an Sl 4.0 diesel. AMG have made a C class diel (it wan't that reliable but they made it). Didn't lambo start out in the diesel car market? (abeitly with old tractors but still).

wilky1107 said:
hum4g3, when r renault bringing out a 250bhp v6 twin turbo diesel?
I'm still looking for Renault 250hp 2.0 twin turbo petrol? They have a 2.0 175hp engine is that ok for you?


Hawk said:
The short rev range and Turbo allow them to suprise na cars sometimes, but drop to the right gear and you will see off anything burning oil this side of a 535d or a VW V10 TDi!
A proper VW v10TDi (there a few baded up ones) are very quick same for the 335d BMW EVo did a 1/4 mile recinetl one one and it didn't do well in what is a diesel poor point since they change up more and its a estate.

172.com said:
That as maybe, but I can still laugh when they power away from me as they look f**king stupid with a big black cloud coming out of the back of them. I don't like driving around in cars that sound like a 20 year-old transit van with a 1/2 mile trail of black sh*t coming out of the back. Each to their own though.
Yep each to there own I've yet to see the colour smoke from my car though.

Roy Munson said:
Using a bigger engine and more cylinders.
The competitors/race organiser agreed to it if they han't it wouldn't have been on the starting line.

Hawk said:
I meant in the race cars section, not the tarted up road cars!

Or did an Audi A3 TDi win that too?
The Seat Ibviza and Mk4 Golf (sisters cars as such) have been doing well in races at the moment. There one for sale at the moment £15k asking it won the race series. In the VW cup theres a avn in it whihc would realy show some suppsidy fact Clios up I've seen and tried to keep with it on track and err I'd recon it would give most cars on here a right run for there money and its a van.


Hawk said:
What I said and will argue till petrol runs out about is that none of the 4 pot sporty diesel hatches can hold a light to the Clio RS in outright performance terms, mind you, neither can many of the petrols!

Diesels have their uses, and some people actually prefer them, but for outright performance, petrol wins and always has done!
Petrols are cheaper to make hence making good cheap hot hatches.


cliobuyer said:
Audi had the rules changed specifically for them, and noteably use of turbocharger which is certainly no breakthrough.

A Lola used a VW V10 tdi engine in 2004 and did it win? I'll tell you. No!
Thats a 50% win to diesels isn't it now I'm sure but Petrol power looses more than 505 of the races they enter.
(OK to be fair there are a load of diesel in competition but I cannot give a number)


Middo said:
wheres edde when you need him lol.
Here's me 2p worth

Roy Munson said:
Petrol is for petrol heads, diesel is for people who have changed car for economical reasons and have the word "torque" printed on the inside of ther eyelids to try and convince themselves that diesel engines are as much fun to drive with. They are not.

I love the petrol vs. diesel threads :D
I love the threads to even better showing up petrolheads on track.

Diesel are fun I prefere my dci to my Williams in many respects for drivablity which is something I associate with enjoyment.


Williams025 said:
Jeeez. Have you ever driven a diesel. It goes like this; No power, no power, no power, no power, no power, no power, no power, no power, no power, POWER, power dies.
Last time I checked it was 4k to 7k in a 172/182 a diel more like 2 to 4k. Doesn't that mean a 172 goes from 40 to 70 in one gear in the power band the diesel goes from 40 to 80.


Chris n nic said:
And also people make out that diesels are amazing on fuel....but the new engines are faster than old for a reason. Our works bora was a good example.....fine cruising on the motorway but on instant reading the economy would easily drop below 20...had it down to sub 15 b4 now. You can`t have one without the other...good performance or good economy.
I've yet to get my dci below 29.9mpg on track I can do that in a 1.2 on the road (same HP) on track I'd recon a 1.2 would do 20mpg.

Chris n nic said:
Mazda 6 with 143bhp (iirc) and I reckon over 240 lb/ft..she was in the Cup. We went up a slip road where she could/should have used 2nd but went in third. I was keeping up at first...then I could hear the Clio come on cam and that was it...probably pulled 10 cars buy the time I ran out of gears. Yes the mazda is heavier but it felt so quick over the week I had it..until I actually tried against mine. Yes mine is modded but I wouldn`t expect to paste a std 172 buy such a margin as I did the Mazda.
Your car not exactly a normal Cup though.
 
edde said:
Last time I checked it was 4k to 7k in a 172/182 a diel more like 2 to 4k. Doesn't that mean a 172 goes from 40 to 70 in one gear in the power band the diesel goes from 40 to 80.

Not in reality, due to different gearing (model to model). My issue with the diesel powerband, and its the same with all the diesels I have driven, bar the BMWs which were autos, is that the powerband supports full power (and I mean BHP not torque) over such a small range. This is precisely why they are so dull to drive as the power just falls off rather than being sustained until the gear change. If you change to support the powerband on most diesels its like you are permanently short shifting. So unsatisfying!
 
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edde said:
Do the calcualtion I'd see what the costs are you'll loose a fair bit buying a new car.
I like the Golf but 20k isn't many miles so the cost of a Golf might not work out. Infact it might pay for the extra tyres etc you'll go though in the Clio.


yer its a difficult one, i would be getting the oldest highest millage golf i could, seen a few 2004's @ 60,000 miles.

still over 10K tho, could pick up a Ph2 172 in a few months for 5K i recon.
 
edde said:
The competitors/race organiser agreed to it if they han't it wouldn't have been on the starting line.

Yeah I realise that. It still makes no difference. It wasn't a level playing field. Everyone knew Audi were going to win based on fuel economy alone. I wonder if they'll be allowed to use a bigger engine with more cylinders next time around?

Audi winning Le-Mans using a diesel powered car has nothing to do with the average road car. I could mention that F1 cars run on petrol...nothing to do with petrol powered road cars.
 
  Scirocco GT 210
cliokhunt said:
My current car is by no means fast, but it's faster than 1.6 petrols. So make of that what you will.

Faster than something like a 106 gti/saxo vts?


How would your 1.5 TURBO diesel compare against something similar like a Mitsi colt 1.5 turbo petrol?


Diesel owners keep forgetting their cars have turbos! And compare them to n/a petrols.

Arggh.
 
Roy Munson said:
Yeah I realise that. It still makes no difference. It wasn't a level playing field. Everyone knew Audi were going to win based on fuel economy alone. I wonder if they'll be allowed to use a bigger engine with more cylinders next time around?

Audi winning Le-Mans using a diesel powered car has nothing to do with the average road car. I could mention that F1 cars run on petrol...nothing to do with petrol powered road cars.
They still had to run from what I remember with the intake restrictor slike the conpetition the extr turbo and CC was to help remove smoke and make it competitive they sould have made it just have quick with less cc but more smoke IMO.

Audi are milking (and rightly so) the tdi sucess as least peopel cna fell they have a race can enginnering under the bonnet of there cars. Petrol owners cannot as the racing petrols rev much higher and don't share any real road cars bit so theres less onection feeling.
 
edde said:
They still had to run from what I remember with the intake restrictor slike the conpetition the extr turbo and CC was to help remove smoke and make it competitive they sould have made it just have quick with less cc but more smoke IMO.

Audi are milking (and rightly so) the tdi sucess as least peopel cna fell they have a race can enginnering under the bonnet of there cars. Petrol owners cannot as the racing petrols rev much higher and don't share any real road cars bit so theres less onection feeling.

Yeah all fair comments. I just don't see it as such a big deal competing with petrol cars on a different playing field with a few changes in order to TRY and balance everything and make it fair. I think it's clear that had the engine been the exact same configuration as the petrol cars (apart from fuel type) it would'nt have been so competative.
 
Roy Munson said:
Yeah all fair comments. I just don't see it as such a big deal competing with petrol cars on a different playing field with a few changes in order to TRY and balance everything and make it fair. I think it's clear that had the engine been the exact same configuration as the petrol cars (apart from fuel type) it would'nt have been so competative.
I woulnd't expect the petrols to have a chance if we limit them to same.
Ie both to 4k (diesel limited due to the weight of the internals to survive at silly compression ratios and temps which would crack a petrol engine just idling). The diesel is much more eficent at both buring fuel (more energy per liter and per KG and making power over a greater range thn a petrol so pulling out of bends foot down they'd have way more power than the petrols.

The only way of making it fair is to make HP and torque limits easy to do for both diesel and petrolsa nd give a weight penalty to petrols and make appropriate limits on tdi and petrol fuel tanks.
 
edde said:
I woulnd't expect the petrols to have a chance if we limit them to same.
Ie both to 4k (diesel limited due to the weight of the internals to survive at silly compression ratios and temps which would crack a petrol engine just idling). The diesel is much more eficent at both buring fuel (more energy per liter and per KG and making power over a greater range thn a petrol so pulling out of bends foot down they'd have way more power than the petrols.

The only way of making it fair is to make HP and torque limits easy to do for both diesel and petrolsa nd give a weight penalty to petrols and make appropriate limits on tdi and petrol fuel tanks.


That's not really what I was getting at - I know the differences between compression ignition and spark ignition. I was suggestion that if the cylinder configuration and displacement were the same...

Anyway...the basis of my dislike for diesels is that they are boring compared to the next closest petrol model. I don't find the fact that a diesel with more cylinders and higher capacity won Le Mans, impressive at all. Brilliant marketing though :)
 
  Renaultsport Clio 182
Edde you are hilarious, what planet are you from?

List the 4 pot diesels which can beat my 182 from 0-100mph, I cant find any!

When I had a Fiesta Zetec S it was an even match for my mates Golf 130TDi, and later I had a Mitsu Cyborg R which was about as fast as my 182 and that used to slaughter another mates chipped Golf 150TDi.

Lets not go there with the handling!
 
  Nissan 350Z
The powerband thing: You just cant compare the two cars, they are so completely different that any comparison is worthless.

A naturally aspirated petrol is something that builds up the more you rev it.

Diesels are not. They are something like "nothing, nothing, nothing, BANG-ALL-THE-POWER-AT-ONCE-WHEELS-SPINNING-TORQUESTEER, fading, fading, gone".

I had to chuckle before at the comment that with a TDI you can drive around town all day in 4th. That is no more true for a TDI than it is for a petrol. In my old Fab vRS is had a languid 1000 rpm, and then once you hit just below 2000 rpm then it would shift. I seem to remember 30 mph being around 1900 rpm in 4th in that car. Now, any less than that, and it had NO torque whatsoever, and would practically refuse to move. How many towns can you maintain 30 mph around? I drive around newcastle every single day, and if I could maintain 30 mph average on any day, I would be absolutely amazed TBH.

Now, with the Clio, I can actually drive at 20 mph in 4th if i desire, and the car will pull cleanly from those revs. Thats more than I could say about the TDI.

So the thought that you have to stir the gearbox is no more true for a petrol than a diesel. In fact, I'd argue that to drive a diesel genuinely quick, you often need, if anything, slightly more gear changes than a petrol. For example, by the time I'd reached 65 in a Fabia vRS I'd be reaching for 4th, in the Clio i'll be reaching for 3rd.

Its true that in every day driving a (chipped) TDI will beat a 182. Why? Well how many people drive around all the time with their car on cam? Not me, and I do drive very fast. You simply rarely get the chance around town. However, on the open road, where I can drive with real intent (i.e. car on cam all the time), then its a different story. As I said, I have already proved to myself that my very lightly modded 182 is quicker both in a straight line and around corners than a breathed on Fabia VRS. If anyone is having trouble, then i really cant explain it. Sure enough some of the 150's might not be completely blown away, but you should stay ahead and pull some lengths on it.

And in the end, for a keen driver, nothing beats the thrill of keeping a revvy petrol engine on cam around the twisties.

Another thing I found with the diesel, was by their nature of having nothing at all before the turbo kicks in, you want to keep the turbo spinning when you change up. To do this, in my Fabia i was revving to 3500 rpm in the lower gears and 3000 rpm in the higher gears at least. Incidentally, this was subjectivey where much of the power seemed to be before tailing off. So driving it every day, yes you were going quickly, but you were using most of its potential in almost every driving situation, and when you wanted to really stretch its legs it didnt appear to have much more left to give whereas when you rev a petrol, its a different story, most are much faster when revved than when driven at lower revs. The 1x2 engine is almost like two different engines. The sensible but torquey engine at lower revs, and the manic one at high revs.

Incidentally, I dont miss the torque that much. Sure you have to rev the clio a bit higher, but i find by keeping the revs between 3000 - 5000 rpm on the Clio you get plenty of grunt and can drive very quickly without thrashing it. Even that range is more than enough to see off the average car. Incidentally, if you replaced the 0 - 8000 rpm numbers with the 0-5000 numbers of a TDI, you'd see that while the petrol is making more noise, in terms of effort, the engines are doing about the same amount of work relative to their potential.
 
  MK1 V6 Lutecia / 197
cliobuyer said:
You're not cliokhunts brother are you?

Torque is a twisting force, for acceleration, power is what matters top end.

Go back and take a GSCE in Physics....

It is Torque that causes acceleration NOT power....:rolleyes:

Torque is what does the actual work (acceleration). But power
is how FAST we we do the work. And acceleration depends on the engine's ability to generate torque at more than just one rpm.

The fatter the torque curve is (no matter how small the max torque value), the faster you can accelerate because the more rpms you have to work with, the higher the gear ratios and thus the higher your torque at the ground.

You maximize torque to the ground through gearing keeping the engine in the rpm range where the engine generates the most ground speed for a given torque value.

So yes, you *feel* torque, but it's torque at the ground, not at the engine. If you can rev high enough, then gearing will increase your effective torque to the ground for a longer period of time.

Torque you feel.. torque applied for a large range of rpms
equates to faster acceleration, and the highest rpm that you can maintain useful torque will be your peak horsepower number
.

:approve:
 
  MK1 V6 Lutecia / 197
I'm buying a JCB next.....350mph wasn't it?

And it was Diesel powered.....another victory!

Add that to Le Mans....plus the fact that all the big companies are beginning to realise the potential sof diesel.....I believe the future is bright.....the future is diesel.

And boys the old black smoke doesn't really apply anymore and hasn't done since the 306 diesel.....so get over that argument! I sure don't see any coming out the back of any modern VW/BMW/Audi/Merc...et al. We ahve things called "Active Exhaust Manifolds" now which not only control engine noise through the exhaust but also control burnt fuel gases through the system.....
 
  Clio 172 mk2
Roy Munson said:
Yeah I realise that. It still makes no difference. It wasn't a level playing field. Everyone knew Audi were going to win based on fuel economy alone. I wonder if they'll be allowed to use a bigger engine with more cylinders next time around?

Audi winning Le-Mans using a diesel powered car has nothing to do with the average road car. I could mention that F1 cars run on petrol...nothing to do with petrol powered road cars.

Agree

Making parallels between the Audi Le mans car and road diesels is nonsense
 
  clio 172 phase 1
I think everybody needs to chill out a bit on here! all willky was saying was that how he coudn't believe how well the tdi went! but we iknow wot disadvantage you had tho m8 :rasp:
 
  Nissan 350Z
R8TDL said:
And boys the old black smoke doesn't really apply anymore

Yes it does :p

Most diesels i follow still smoke, including a 2 year old Audi I followed the other day, which, in his attempt to try and shake me from his tail, turned my car to graphite and gave every passing pedestriam asthma immediately.

My old Furby vRS smoked...

Not many cars have particulate filters yet.
 
Hawk said:
Edde you are hilarious, what planet are you from?

List the 4 pot diesels which can beat my 182 from 0-100mph, I cant find any!

When I had a Fiesta Zetec S it was an even match for my mates Golf 130TDi, and later I had a Mitsu Cyborg R which was about as fast as my 182 and that used to slaughter another mates chipped Golf 150TDi.

Lets not go there with the handling!
Handing isn't the fault of the engine to be fair though. The petrol Golfs handle just the same as the diesels.

I've tried reding my post and I've yet to see where a 182 type diesel I've said will keep with a 182. Race ciruuits are different than drag strips.
 
wilky1107 said:
if there was a turbo diesel, the same wieght as a 182 and 182bhp... it wud beat it =]

Surely they would be the same though? The petrol losing out at low revs, the diesel losing out at high revs - working out even?
 
petrol would beat it all day long really. a Fabia VRS tunes to over 200bhp and 30million lbs/ft torque, yet is still slower. With all that torque weight wont make a difference either... although I'm sure the arguement will now change to suit the weisel lovers lol
 
  MK4 Anni & MK5 Edt30
TheJesus said:
petrol would beat it all day long really. a Fabia VRS tunes to over 200bhp and 30million lbs/ft torque, yet is still slower. With all that torque weight wont make a difference either... although I'm sure the arguement will now change to suit the weisel lovers lol
I think u'll find they hav 60millions lbs/ft torque actually
 


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