Differences between 172 and 172 cup, 182 and 182 cup

[alistairolsen]

Hi,

I'm new on here and possibly considering a Clio as a track car in the near future.

I've had a search and a browse around here and other sites and Im struggling to come up with what I'm after.

For a track car (so Aircon and ABS deleted, interior trim and spare wheel all gone and springs and dampers swapped out for coilovers, what differences are you left with?

I understand the 172 and the 172 cup had different wishbones which lead to more castor?

I've also seen references to the bolt spacing on the struts being different on cup models, but that the hub geometry is identical?

What gives the track width difference? Is there a thread with a summary of the different wheel sizes and offsets which were used throughout the years?

Are the racks/subframes/rear axles all the same?

Any help would be appreciated

Cheers

 

[Saner]

Some targeted searching will answer all those questions.

I know I posted up all the different wheels and offsets once.

 

[Chip-mk1]

As you arent in the clique around here, expect to get told to search etc, by people who dont realise that by the same question keep getting covered it refines and improves the answers.
Thats just CS, you will get used to it if you coped with Migweb etc!

Ph1 non cup 172 = slightest caster, narrowest track, 54mm bolt spacing
Early Ph2 non cup 172 = slightest caster, narrowest track, 54mm bolt spacing
Late Ph2 non cup 172 = increased caster, narrowest track, 54mm bolt spacing
Late Ph2 cup 172 = increased caster, increased track, 54mm bolt spacing
182 non cup = increased caster, #increased track, 54mm bolt spacing
182 cup = increased caster, #increased track, 60mm bolt spacing


# = I think, the rest I am sure of though but not sure if the 182 got the wider track or not (its just holes moved futher out in the subframe to mount the wishbones)


The increased camber on the arms is just a case of the holes drilled in different places, see my thread here:


http://www.cliosport.net/forum/showthread.php?656746-Got-caster-yo



Welcome to the site, I am sure a man with your sort of suspension knowledge will be a real asset to us all to be playing with these cars if you get a clio and stick around!

 

[Chip-mk1]

PS

Bottom line is, for a man of your talents its all irrelevant as the small difference that are present are REALLY easy to retrofit anyway.

Just pick a 172 non cup if you want aircon, and if its a pure trackday car then get a 172 cup without it so you dont have to bother deleting it, thats the only significant difference between a normal 172 and the tesco value cup variant of them.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Sorry mate, just realised I missed another bit of the question as well.

Rear axle, they vary in stub axle spacing, but the beam is the same,and again its very easy to change (and you will need to shim it anyway to get the correct rear geo, which is easily done as its a 4 bolt stub axle so can be tipped for toe and camber easily)

Steering racks are the same, but personally I prefer to get rid of the hydraulics which is prone to failure and fit DCi EPAS instead (just add a control box like you do with a corsa column in a mk1 escort etc)

 

[MG cup]

To add to Chips points....

There's two steering racks manufacturers, TRW/SMI and you'll have to physically check which one you have on your car. Much and such the same in geometry from what I can gather with the only difference being the thread where the track rod screws into. Also the 172 Cup (the best model IMO) has the longest track rods due to its increased track width gained from drilling subframe wider at the wishbone pick ups.

182's have bigger bearings in the front hubs.

182 cups have the thickest RARB built into the rear axle. Interchangeable or just use the PMS axle stiffener kit.

Some cars although I'm not sure which variants have different thickness rear stub axles, people will typically space these out more so no so important.

You have to think about shafts too if swapping parts about as its a but of a minefield. Ph1 172 have the shortest single piece shafts, the 172 cups are single piece and the longest, the 182's have a two piece on the longest side.

To recap.... Basically if your going to be tracking it and like to play with things like Chip has eluded to then I would just get a 172 Cup, 90% of track/race cars end up with half the 172 Cups engine/suspension/brakes parts fitted anyway and there is a lot less wiring and rubbish to delete for a start.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Yeah he will no doubt play about with it as Alistair is one of the guys I have learnt the most about suspension geometry from over the years (well I guess technically trial and error is the main one I have learned from but he is second, lol)

 

[alistairolsen]

Saner, cheers, will try and look it out.

Chip, thanks for that, I found your thread on the wishbones last night hence the knowledge of those, so that's an easy mod for more castor, ironically the same as I did to Rob's astra years ago!

I was hoping the track/camber wouldn't be in the subframe, that's a bit more of a pain to change but not insurmountable!

The car I'm looking at is a mk2 non-cup 172 on an 02 plate, it's already caged and has had the aircon deleted and so on, so the suspension is really the only remaining difference. Sadly searching brings up all the stuff about "cup packs" and trim options which wasn't really what i was after.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Its only the holes moved out in the subframe, easily replicated still mate, just weld them up and redrill them, wouldnt even need to take the frame off the car I reckon if you have an air powered drill thats good for access, or just slot them and tack a washer on.

02 plate has long drive shafts anyway (and are two piece so better than the cup ones) so you dont need to worry about that, in fact you will make the shaft length better by spacing the wishbones out as they can bottom out the shaft when lowered and running a lot of camber on the ph2 non cup (not an issue on other models)

 

[Chip-mk1]

One other thing worth doing, is some roll centre correction when you lower it:

This is mine:

Its a kit made and sold in a group buy by a couple of guys on here, 625 quid which sounds steep but its actually more work than it looks, but again im sure its stuff you could make yourself anyway if you need it.

 

[alistairolsen]

MG Cup, whats the PMS stiffeneing kit all about? Do you have a link?

The aim here is a cheap track car, not a project, but I do like suspension right, so redrilling some holes will definitely happen, as will shimming the axle, but I'd prefer to avoid sourcing parts from 47 different variants if possble (as nice as the two piece shafts and bigger bearings sound!

 

[Chip-mk1]

PMS = pure motorsport

http://www.pure-motorsport.co.uk/details.php?itemid=153


Again though, cant see you paying for it when you can make it assuming you are still as tight as you always were!

 

[Chip-mk1]

The aim here is a cheap track car, not a project

LOL

Yeah, like that will stay the case!

 

[MG cup]

If the aim is a cheap track car then don't look past the 172 cup IMO.

As Chip has posted the link above, that's the axle kit but also check out all their other stuff. They have everything from sump guards to competition shifters, bump steer correction kits, exhausts, manifolds and its all made in house. Your cheap track car will go right out the window when you have a browse.

 

[alistairolsen]

Good to know I'll have the long two piece shafts but will check when i got to look at it.

Roll centre kit looks good and definitely an improvement. Not something Ill be buying at that price however!

Ah cool, like the nova strengthening kits of old. Sadly nowadays I have less time, but luckily a little more money so the bias has altered, but I still want the locost done so this needs bought and used really which is the attraction and why I'm not starting from scratch because I cant afford the time.

On a sidenote and not related to the thread really, but I hear mixed reports on whether cambelts and dephaser puley can be done DIY?

 

[GrahamS]

From what Dan said a while ago I understand all RHD cars have SMI racks.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Sounds like you are more where I am now then mate, cash rich (well ish, lol) and time poor!

These cars are easy to get carried away on, but the one you sent me the link for looks like the hard work is done anyway, and despite morgan getting a massive hard-on over cups, there really isnt any difference that would be relevant to you, although do check how they have done the aircon delete as some methods are better than others!

The roll centre kit is money well spent TBH, the difference on turn in is quite noticable, because people normally change the spring rate and hence massive alter the roll resistance at the same time as they lower it, they dont normally notice the negative effect the roll centre change has had, its only when you fit the correction kit you realise!
(well in your case you will realise when you get the tape measure out and do the equations no doubt anyway!)

 

[Chip-mk1]

On a sidenote and not related to the thread really, but I hear mixed reports on whether cambelts and dephaser puley can be done DIY?

By you yes, I can post you the genuine renault tools to do them with.

Its proper fiddly the first time you do one, I still HATE doing it in the car as Im not used to it (Ive done lots on engines out of car but very few in the car) but its not actually rocket science and is just a case of following procdures properly and being fussy when you do it, all stuff you will have no drama with.

 

[alistairolsen]

Certainly more so than I used to be.

Yeah, I watched Porkie do it..... I'll ask about the aircon delete, cheers for the heads up.

I'm sure it is, but its the price of three trackdays without it.... Will bear it in mind and possibly look into it over the winter.

That would be great, thanks! From what i gather the Laser ones arent really good enough to do the job right! Hopefully its no worse than doing a T5 or an Xe corsa with the engine in the car but I shall see.....

 

[Chip-mk1]

I would sooner do a head gasket change on my XE corsa than a belt change on my 182

 

[alistairolsen]

Sounds like fun!

 

[Chip-mk1]

Sounds like fun!

When you have done a few it's easy. I've seen dan from sjm or mike from Mwm make it look very trivial but when you aren't used to it it's fiddly.

oh another thing, rocker cover has cam caps built in, so if the rocker cover leaks it's a belt off job to sort.

 

[Ph1 Tom]

My Clio has cost me ££££ more than I ever thought it would...where do you stop.

I wish I'd bought a 172 cup to start with. The only bits of mine that aren't cup are the carpet, dash, shell, windows....I started from a ph1 though. Although this is because it started as a road car and as I found it more and more capable it slowly became more of a track car over 12 months.

If the non cup 172 has a cage etc. already it may well be a better starting point and you can always change bits if need be.

 

[alistairolsen]

Yeah that's the plan, it's already stripped, caged and has a few nice bits on it. I don't mind doing a little development, but I don't want to start yet another project that doesn't see the track, I'll improve times more with seat time than spanner time.

From what's coming up i suspect Ill check the engines in good health and then do a geo setup on it with the cup front geometry and leave it at that for the forseeable.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Thats a good way to enjoy them.

I use string and a cheap camber gauge to geo mine, seems to work well enough!

 

[alistairolsen]

So I'm now the proud owner of a 172 track car. Let the fun begin!