Engine problems

[Terry172]

Car: Mark 2 Phase 1

Right not sure how to describe this but here goes......

Mate and I sorted out the suspension today and my panel filter

Everything was done and we headed over to a mates then down to a Mcdonalds.....both times engine switched off

Went to start the car at Mcdonalds and it started fine as normal and then I went to go over one of those silly speedbumps (high but thin ones) and didn't at first have enough to get over so it went to fall back so I gave it a bit more power and then all of a sudden the engine has died!!! Went to start it again and nothing......the engine was turning over but was not firing and a mate pointed out that when on turnover there was no smell of petrol from the exhaust, only hot air!!!

Checked the fuel cut off switch....fine.

Got the recovery people out to come and get me and at first he thought it might be either no fuel (fuel gauge not reading right) or my immobiliser kicking in. Well filled up with petrol and nothing, left the battery disconnected for 30-45mins to reset errors and nothing.

The only thing I can notice that's different to normal before start up is before the final turn of the key there is like a wooshing noise normally (fuel pump pressurising ready to deliever fuel) but this was not happenining and was replaced by a double click like noise.......

Has anybody had this problem before or has an idea as to what it is?

The checks I will do when I get the chance will be:

1) Check all fuses
2) Open fuel tank inspection hatch under the rear seat and have a look at the connections and at this point try and start the car again and listen for it start up.

Any other ideas of what to check or what it could be?

:S :S :S :S

 

[Gym thread]

not to sure but sounds like when i had my saxo vtr it turned out that i had a seized fuel pump.

 

[Terry172]

Any ideas would be much appreciated?

 

[bmh.01]

Right sounds like the fuel pump isn't running, check the relays and fuses in the engine fuse/relay box first.

If that gets you nowhere then you need to check that the pump is getting 12v when the ignition is on.n

 

[Markyx2cuk]

hope ya get it sorted soon enuff dude

 

[Terry172]

Right sounds like the fuel pump isn't running, check the relays and fuses in the engine fuse/relay box first.

If that gets you nowhere then you need to check that the pump is getting 12v when the ignition is on.n

Cheers for the info mate much appreciated.......I have checked all the fuses I can find in the engine bay (5-6 fuses in total), where do I find the relay switches and are they easy to get to and check?

I have had the back seat up and opened the plastic lid to check the connections but I have no tool to check if there is power or not (will try and borrow one)......saying that though the fuel pump did not sound like it was switching on at all

hope ya get it sorted soon enuff dude

Cheers mate so do!!

 

[Mark One]

does sound like fuel pump or immobiliser. If you are getting a smell of fuel then perhaps that could suggest no spark

 

[Terry172]

does sound like fuel pump or immobiliser. If you are getting a smell of fuel then perhaps that could suggest no spark

There's no smell of fuel when trying to start the car at all and the fuel pump doesn't seem to be switching on/pressurising when turning the key

How can I check if it is my immobiliser?

 

[Terry172]

Need a little help on location of fuel relay switch.

I have located 4 relays which sits under the fuses in the engine bay

3 x black
1 x yellow

Is one of these the fuel relay switch? If so how do I test it and if not, where is it?

Another query I have is....How to test the connections on the fuel pump with a meter as in what wires do I test?

2 x wires fed from the fuel cut off switch
2 x wires, which I am assuming is the + and -

Any help would be much appreciated.....cheers

 

[bmh.01]

Going to need a pic of the engine bay relay box please. Does it look like this?:

 

[bmh.01]

Oh and for testing just see if the fuel pump is getting 12v at the terminals first.

 

[Terry172]

Cheers bmh.01 for your help...much appreciated mate

Here is a pic of the fuses and relays in the same place as yours

As you can see it differs from your pic and you seem to have 6 relays + 1 yellow when I only have 3 black + 1 yellow......

 

[bmh.01]

Fuel pump relay is the top right, try swapping it with the one next to it. It only goes from fuse to relay to pump so as long as the immobiliser is disarming then it should run.

 

[Terry172]

Fuel pump relay is the top right, try swapping it with the one next to it. It only goes from fuse to relay to pump so as long as the immobiliser is disarming then it should run.

Cheers mate, help much appreciated .....I will check I am getting Voltage at the fuel pump end....if not then i will swap those 2 around to check the relay and go from there

 

[Terry172]

Right finally got a meter and tested the car today. The read out at pump end connection is 8.13V so I know the relay switch is working and feeding power to the pump.

I left the ignition on when I re-connected the clip to the pump so I could have a listen but no noise of the pump switching on at all......so am I safe in saying it's the pump?

 

[bmh.01]

8v isn't enough. Needs to be 12v, have you tried swapping the relays around? Got to be bad connection somewhere at a guess.

 

[Terry172]

8v isn't enough. Needs to be 12v, have you tried swapping the relays around? Got to be bad connection somewhere at a guess.

No haven't tryed swapping the relays around yet as didn't think I would need to after getting a voltage reading......

Will go and swap them around now if I can see enough to do so and then get another reading from the connections

 

[Terry172]

Could the 8v reading be to do with the battery not being fully charged from where we tryed to start the car so much last weekend and also it just sitting out there for a week?

On the connection block at the fuel pump end there are 4 wires am I right in getting just a reading across the + and - and no reading across the fuel cut of switch wires?

 

[bmh.01]

Could be, whats it reading on the battery terminals?

The fuel cut off switch doesn't show up on the autodata wiring diagrams so I forgot about that. I don't know how thats wired in tbh, at a guess it'll be in series with the pump and cut the 12v feed to it.

So try swapping the relays, then test to see if you get 12v at the cut off switch if no joy.

 

[Terry172]

Took out all of the relays

then took a reading at the fuel pump connection and I am still getting 8.13V.

Negative terminal of meter top left
Positive terminal of meter bottom lef
Other 2 terminals are the + and - from the fuel cut off switch which I get no reading from.

Should I still be getting this reading if the relay switches have been removed as surely I have broken the circuit that's if I have actually found the fuel relay switch?

I put all the relay switches back in

Next I checked the voltage across the battery terminals and I am getting 12.4V

I then checked the fuel cut off switch again and took a reading at the terminals to the left of the red button

here I got 8.2V

Am I right in saying the 8.2v at the fuel cut off switch has something to do with the reading at the fuel pump connection?

 

[Andy_RT]

It is 1 of your black relay's mate. Theres 1 for your indicators, 1 for the cooling fan and 1 for your fuel pump aswell as spark plugs. I had the same problem because the relay was corroded inside due to the crappy fuse box cover is not very water tight. I just used the fan relay one for the time being (and it started first time) before i got a new 1. But watch your temp gauge lol. There £15 - £16 from renault.

 

[bmh.01]

The other two pins in the fuel pump plug should be for the tank level, are you sure they go to the cut off switch?

Yes i'd say theres a problem somewhere if your only getting 8.2v at the switch, time to trace and check the wires in the bay.

 

[Terry172]

It is 1 of your black relay's mate. Theres 1 for your indicators, 1 for the cooling fan and 1 for your fuel pump aswell as spark plugs. I had the same problem because the relay was corroded inside due to the crappy fuse box cover is not very water tight. I just used the fan relay one for the time being (and it started first time) before i got a new 1. But watch your temp gauge lol. There £15 - £16 from renault.

Andy what ones did you swap around?

The other two pins in the fuel pump plug should be for the tank level, are you sure they go to the cut off switch?

Yes i'd say theres a problem somewhere if your only getting 8.2v at the switch, time to trace and check the wires in the bay.

Well I assume they are the wires that connect to the fuel cut off switch because of the same colours either end.

Okey dokey next plan of action is to check the ECU voltage at pin 30 as I have been told that it should be 12V for the car to start and if not then there is a break in the wire somewhere under the battery.....

:banghead:

 

[Terry172]

To add to the above........if I do not find a 12V feed then I have been told to give it a direct 12V feed to see if the car fires.

Also been told to check the following.....

Spark plugs - take them out and test them
If they should not work then test the coil pack

Really annoying when the list of checks grows when you were hoping you had found the fault already..........

 

[bmh.01]

The wires being the same colour are irrelevant really as it'll change between 2 or 3 looms before it gets to the cut off switch from the fuel pump and they don't keep the colours the same. They other two are for the fuel gauge.

Yep giving it a 12v feed would be one way of testing but you have already found the fault (i think), its just finding what is causing the volt drop.

If you take the battery off and check for insulation and continuity from the cut off switch would be a good start.

 

[Daz Clio Cup]

Took out all of the relays

From the look of that picture, water has been getting in there and corroded the terminals (green is copper corrosion) could explain low voltage from excessive resistance. clean with contact cleaner and old toothbrush and try again with voltage checks

Daz

 

[Terry172]

The wires being the same colour are irrelevant really as it'll change between 2 or 3 looms before it gets to the cut off switch from the fuel pump and they don't keep the colours the same. They other two are for the fuel gauge.

Yep giving it a 12v feed would be one way of testing but you have already found the fault (i think), its just finding what is causing the volt drop.

If you take the battery off and check for insulation and continuity from the cut off switch would be a good start.

Ello mate thanks for all your help so far.......I have spent a few hours on the car today and a mate came round as well to test a few things out and whats strange is that I get 8V at the the fuel connector and and fuel cut off switch but when he connected his tools up he found that there was no live going to the fuel pump or the fuel cut off switch which he says points in the direction of the falling faults

1) Worst case ECU
2) Relay switch other than the ones I tested has gone
3) Sensor has gone e.g. the one that sits near the gearbox and measures the rotations of the engine on the flywheel......can't for the life of me remember what it's called!!

Think I will try one last time with the advice below as I never know....something stupid like that may be fooking up my voltage somewhere enough to switch my fuel pump off but saying that my mate did stick a 12v feed on the pump and nothing happened:S so confused now and think its time for the trip to the garage:dapprove:

Took out all of the relays

From the look of that picture, water has been getting in there and corroded the terminals (green is copper corrosion) could explain low voltage from excessive resistance. clean with contact cleaner and old toothbrush and try again with voltage checks

Daz

Cheers for the heads up mate I will try and clean that up and give it another go and see what happens:quiet:

 

[Daz Clio Cup]

it's just i had that sort of corrosion on my oxygen sensor (lambda) and was playing up. cleaned it and fixed the prob

 

[Terry172]

it's just i had that sort of corrosion on my oxygen sensor (lambda) and was playing up. cleaned it and fixed the prob

Cheers for the info mate I will give this a go tomorrow night as you never know it could work....just that one little thing:quiet:

 

[bmh.01]

I'd say thats quite possibly the problem. Never even noticed it before!

 

[Terry172]

I will clean this up tonight along with the relays!! Lets pray that this is the problem and once cleaned everthinmg works again and it starts!!!

Oh yeah just to add I done the dash trick test last night and I got a j on the display which =

J means a fault has been noted on the fuel gauge. It must have disconnected for longer than 100 seconds. The resistance from the fuel tank sensor needs to be between 5 and 350 Ohms.

 

[Andy_RT]

Inside the relays they are corroded aswell, which means you have to buy new ones. The reason you have no power to your fuel pump is because of your relays are f****d. I had the same problem. I ran a wire from the battery to the fuel pump and it worked, but the engine still didn't start because there was still no power getting to the spark plugs because of the relays. Clean the terminals inside the relay holder and swap the black relays around (the smaller rectangular shaped ones) and see if the engine starts. If that doesn't work then there is some more relays under the glove box inside the car. These are for the wipers etc. And there should be another black one which is for your indicators. Try using this one if the other relays dont do anything. Just move the realys arond in all slots and see if anything happens.
All the relays that are the same colour are the same so it wont damage anything if you swap some of them around.

 

[Terry172]

Inside the relays they are corroded aswell, which means you have to buy new ones. The reason you have no power to your fuel pump is because of your relays are f****d. I had the same problem. I ran a wire from the battery to the fuel pump and it worked, but the engine still didn't start because there was still no power getting to the spark plugs because of the relays. Clean the terminals inside the relay holder and swap the black relays around (the smaller rectangular shaped ones) and see if the engine starts. If that doesn't work then there is some more relays under the glove box inside the car. These are for the wipers etc. And there should be another black one which is for your indicators. Try using this one if the other relays dont do anything. Just move the realys arond in all slots and see if anything happens.
All the relays that are the same colour are the same so it wont damage anything if you swap some of them around.

Cheers for the info mate much appreciated but I don't think that will solve it for my problem:

* 8V at the pump - you had no power
* Ran a 12v supply to the pump and nothing happened - yours switched on
* Changed around the relays in the engine bay and none of them make a difference

Could try swapping them with a relay from under the glove box just incase water got over all the ones in the engine bay, so will give that a go tonight before the car gets picked up to go to the garage tomorrow.

 

[Daz Clio Cup]

Did you manage to clean it all up? did it make any difference?

Daz

 

[bmh.01]

Running 12v to the pump is useless if the ground is shitted up too.

 

[Terry172]

Did you manage to clean it all up? did it make any difference?

Daz

Cleaned everything up and nothing changed so I threw in the gloves and waved the white flag and it is now in the garage getting sorted hopefully

Will let you guys know what it was in the end soon enough

Cheers for all your help bmh.01:star:

 

[Terry172]

Update:

The car has been tested and at first it looked like it was a wiring problem between a component and the ECU so they changed the wire and there was still a problem........after some more testing they found it to be a problem with the ECU. They can get the car started but only when they manually overide the ECU output to some actuator in the fuel process system and as soon as the ECU is in place again the car doesn't want to know!!

So new ECU from Renault is on order and a very light wallet to follow

 

[en035]

sorry m8^^^^ but why don't you grab yourself a GrpN ECU. You need an ECU anyway.

 

[Terry172]

sorry m8^^^^ but why don't you grab yourself a GrpN ECU. You need an ECU anyway.

Was going to as the garage I am using is R Sport and asked could I get one of their Group N ECUs fitted but they only fit onto the 172 cup as their ECU doesn't deal with ABS and Air Con which mine has.

Unless there is a group N ECU out there that is for the Mk2 ph1 that you can point me to and would be great info?

 

[en035]

Sure no problem please ask Henk

info@fastchip.nl

Hope you can all sorted it out