Engines... Megane RS Vs 172

[Mav]

Hello peeps,

Long time no visit to the forum. I just read the megane RS thread and it started me wondering again about Turbos.

Why do turbos when strapped on to most engines never seam to give as much power as you would expect? I mean look at the Type R for example, 198 from a NA 2 litre. Now we see the TURBO rs with only 220. The same seams to go for most other makes as well, especially things like the Astra, i mean even with a turbo theres not much in it from the 172?

Can anyone help me understand why things like Evos and Scoobys (OK bad example i no as they have boxer engines but you get the drift) with the same displacement have loads more power.

Cheers

 

[Mav]

Or is it they dont want a 260bhp megane dropping the sale of the Clio V6????

 

[geordiepaul]

All depends on the size of the turbo, I suppose. Remeber the Focus is front wheel drive, Im sure if Ford wanted they could give it more power! The evo and the scooby are 4WD so they can have as much power as they want!!

 

[172man]

the focus is a joke of a car.. it tramslines and torque steers all over the show would make overtaking a nightmare

 

[172man]

220bhp in the new megane is plenty... 0-60 in 6 secs 150 mph what more u want

 

[BenR]

In the RSs state, the turbo is very low pressure, and it gives more of a torque increase than peak power. Cosworth dont have to spend so much money developing a good cylinder head design and dont have to run lumpy cams.

Machining costs are lower since you dont ahve to faff about becuase you have air forced in.

A turbo motor will make huge power IF thats the aim. getting the RS duratec turbo to 350bhp wont be hard at all....expensive, but not hard.

 

[Craggy]

is it cos the evo has toys like the intercooler etc, or does the focus have one?

 

[MarkRS]

All turbo cars have intercoolers, or the ACT (air charge temps) would be too high - loosing power ) the Focus Rs has one, It runs 1 bar boost, (14.7psi) which is more than standard cosworths.

172man - you saying the focus torque steers all over the place, so do most high powered FWD cars, your 172 too slow to do it

Im sure the 220 in the megane as you state will casue it too torwue steer quite badly aswell.

Turbo cars are so easy to get more power from if they wish, take the sierra/escort cosworth, it was restricted to 204bhp/227bhp respectively as the insurance companies said they wouldnt insure them if left at the power they naturally produced.

 

[BenR]

not ALL turbo cars run an intercooler.....

 

[MarkRS]

All ford production turbos run intercoolers, and so do all production turbo cars I can think of the only ones i can think of that dont run one are the low pressure turbo conversions that some companies do on standard cars. -

you need one really to get decent power or the air entering is too hot loosing power, hence the reason people upgarding to grs, pace etc aftermarket ones for uprated cooling.

 

[Craggy]

i didnt think so either ben but wasnt sure!

 

[172man]

Marc RS its nothing to do with the FWD... The RS focus even though this isnt about this topic is a sack of poo.. The ATBs setting is too aggressive flicking power across to wildily when one wheel hits some bad tarmac, or tries to find traction at the same time the turbo is too harsh not progressive enough in its delivery, its a hedge seeking disaster... My cars plenty quick enough yet doesnt tramline all over the rd... If the RS focus is that quick then it couldnt get below 16 sec 1/4 mile at the pod a while back. I think its another FRP

 

[BenR]

fiat bravo turbo diesel?!!

LOL....

yes, to make good power they need an intercooler, but thats not the discussion.

no need to tell us turbo basics either........

 

[MarkRS]

If the focus is that bad, why have so many people bought them

the bloke at the pod was taking it easy or couldnt drive

 

[172man]

 

[BenR]

nothing wrong with the RS.....its a good car......

 

[172man]

if you like hedges...

 

[BenR]

well, the 172 is a bit slow now.......

i love it how everybody things everything is crap bar the 172......its a good car, but could do with another 20bhp......

 

[007]

In answer to the question at the start; Some turbo cars dont have much power because thats what the manufaturers deem to be the best comprimise between grip and acceleration. Reviews of torque steer and wheelspin dont sell cars.

ou can certainly up the power very easily although some cars with strong engines wont cost too much other cars need lot spent for even smaller power gains - compare a Scoob engine to a Cossie engine (that could be a bad comparason).

The FRS could easily have had more power but then it would have got more of a panning for lack of grip and torque steer. They gave it too much power anyway - only because of the lack of cossie in the focus line-up. If they could have got a cossie Focus on the mk1 platform the FRS would not have had the same power. The FRS to me is the new Escort RS Turbo that Ford have chipped and modded instead of the owner once hes/shes bought it.



All above are only my very uneduated opinions so keep your handbags away

 

[BenR]

Quote: Originally posted by CarlosTheJackel on 21 February 2003


only because of the lack of cossie in the focus line-up. If they could have got a cossie Focus on the mk1 platform the FRS would not have had the same power. The FRS to me is the new Escort RS Turbo that Ford have chipped and modded instead of the owner once hes/shes bought it.

That totally lost me.....!!!!

you mean the seirra MK1 platform? for RWD?

again...Lost

 

[007]

LOL no the Focus mk1 platform, it wasnt designed for 4WD so a cossie 4WD version would have been £100,000s of pounds each - the new platform for the nex-gen Focus can supposedly take 4WD

 

[BenR]

LOL....

only slightly clearer.....but what do you mean by could have got a cossie focus on the MK1".....LOL

do you mean use the aincient YB engine?

The escort cossie wasnt desinged for 4wd, they used the old sierra base......

 

[007]

Hmmm I see what you mean Not totally clear but it is Friday night!

I dont actually know what engine they had planned, all i can remember is the Focus itself wasnt really compatable with 4WD without a lot of modifications and cost. The next Focus apparantly can take 4WD no problem so there should be a Cosworth version at some point this century.

 

[BenR]

its ok, i wont be buying one...LOL

Hand me a 105E anglia with a 1760 crossflow anyday

 

[Mav]

Ben,

A bloke i know who works for ford design said the new frame which will accept 4wd (and hence allow a cossie version at last) should be released the end of 2004. The FRS was just a stop gap so people didnt keep moaning about the lack of a decent fucos.
Never sure how true the stuff is that is spread by employees but it seams a reasonable timeframe.

Mav

 

[Ben H]

The Megane RSs turbo is strapped onto the 2.0 16v unit that gives 140bhp in NA form (as seen in later Megane Coupe, Volvo S40 and Laguna). The 165bhp low-pressure turbo as seen in the Vel Satis and Avantime is also based on that unit well.

 

[McBunny]

its actually not that hard to get 4x4 into a mk 1 focus shell there are a few around yet it is too hard for ford to do reliably hehe. Any way it doesnt need to be fwd rwd would be better and sod a 1700 xflow give me a BDA any day

 

[BenR]

give you yes.......but try buy one.......the car will make up 5% of the total cost!

 

[RobFenn]

Exactly, what a pointless thing to do

 

[McBunny]

eh ??? i think i have lost it as i really dont get the last 2 posts

 

[RobFenn]

Turning a focus into 4x4, its expensive and pointless.

 

[McBunny]

not really it just shows what can be done if your willing to pay and anyway look at the wrc focus thats a 4x4

 

[RobFenn]

I know but if you think about it you buy a focus for 10 grand then you swap for the chassis (for an old sierra cosworth one?) and then spend £££s on the engine when you could of got a an EVO or scooby which is cheaper and hasnt got a chassis going on 15 years old.

 

[Tom]

Quote: Originally posted by dogmaul on 24 February 2003

not really it just shows what can be done if your willing to pay and anyway look at the wrc focus thats a 4x4



the wrc focus uses escort wrc bits to make it 4wd

just like the escort used sierra running gear

your looking at a massive amount of money to do that £30k plus

 

[McBunny]

you could do it cheaper than that if you use a different gearbox and different rear axle shorter propshaft why would it have to be an escort cossie one ??

It wasnt just the running gear it was the sierra floor pan and the escort body was enlarged to fit on it.

 

[Craggy]

wrong thread!