Fast road cams-advice needed

[Fredy]

Right, the time to put performance camshafts into mine F4R 732 has come.
I need a recommendation which ones to take. The choice is between catcams ( 421, 428 ) and schricks.

So far my first pick (best buy) are 428 catcams, is there a better option?
What kind of power band I can expect for each of those and what are possible gain with this setup?

Car is running on stock internals ( engine has 120 000 km), performance mod list include:
port matched intake
CAI
Teflon gasket
182 port matched exhaust manifold
custom exhaust with de-cat

ECU side will be sorted by Henk, I will also be using a wideband O2 sensor for logging (custom map).

Car is used as a daily driver, but is frequently attending track days and drag races. Ideally I would put rev limiter 7800 rpm at the highest.


Any useful input is more then welcome

Cheers

 

[franx]

Ask Henk, he will advise you to get Colombo&Bariani cams m8

Beautifull results on a couple of cars he has done

 

[Fredy]

Already asked him and he replied C&B but due to the fact Ive been limited to catcams and schricks for sponsorship reasons I can not choose any other manufacturer.

C&B would not be on my list as you never know what one gets when ordering from those Italians. Some friends were ordered one thing, got another, then back and forward calls, emails etc. Waste of time, time that I dont have at the moment.

Please focus on 421, 428 and schricks

Thank you :approve:

 

[sideways danny]

Cat 428s for use with the standard inlet IMO. the peak power figure should be about 10bhp up once mapped, but the bigger gain will be the engine keeps pulling towards the redline rather than starting to drop off around 6600.

A 7900 limiter is very high on a stock bottom end, around 7500 should be quite enough to still change up into the power band

 

[Daz Clio Cup]

422's, on a henk remap

 

[Fredy]

danny - when I bought the car it was 8k rev limit, then 7800 and now is around 7500 (RS tuner generic calibration)
I mentioned rev limit as I dont know how much revving will i need to get the most out of 428. As a dailiy driver car is driven 90% under 4,5k rpm.
I have a shorter final diff so yes, I guess i dont need to go that high after all LOL

Did a bit of a research on the forum but I can find power band for non of them. From what rpm they start to pull, difference is clear?


daz - I will be running stock ECU with custopm map from Hena. Will 422 be able to give the best under those conditions? I believe that if this was the case change od springs is also needed?


Would it be also a good idea to polish the valves, just to clean them while engine is opened?
I cant afford myself head work at the moment so I guess this is the most I could do regarind taht.

 

[Hutchie]

422's, on a henk remap

+1

and although cat cams seccomend using double springs, the ones they supply dont fit and are not needed untill your bouncing off 9k anyways

 

[Fredy]

+1

and although cat cams seccomend using double springs, the ones they supply dont fit and are not needed untill your bouncing off 9k anyways

U got me thinking now as I can get 422s for the same price as 428s.......

Are you absolutely positive that I can run them on stock springs and ECU?

Any first hand experience would be graeat.

Thx for all the help guys!

 

[Hutchie]

we run them on standard spring in rally car iirc
but stand alone ecu but if daz said henk has 422 map for rs tuner then sounds promising, will rev to 7800 nicely and has loads of grunt low down

 

[Fredy]

we run them on standard spring in rally car iirc
but stand alone ecu but if daz said henk has 422 map for rs tuner then sounds promising, will rev to 7800 nicely and has loads of grunt low down

Uf I am getting all horny now LOL

Have to mail Hank forst to see does he have any experience with F4R 730 + 422 combination.

Love the "will rev up to 7800k and lots of grund low down".
Sound too good to be true

 

[Hutchie]

we also run high comp pistons and itb's and its a weapon. pulls like a train from 3k

 

[Fredy]

we also run high comp pistons and itb's and its a weapon. pulls like a train from 3k

I dont have ur toys but I hope Ill get similar effect on my stoc internals engine that has 120 000 km

Just emailed Hank, waiting for reply

Cheers

 

[sideways danny]

422's, on a henk remap

can't use them with stock pistons unless you machine deeper valve pockets, and not by a mile on the stock ECU

 

[maupineda]

can't use them with stock pistons unless you machine deeper valve pockets, and not by a mile on the stock ECU

Danny, have a question... How are 428's torque wise compared to standard? Are they better from bottom end to the limiter or there is a trade off at low revs? I am very interested but 172's don't have that much below 3,000 and wouldn't like it to be worse. I like the idea of holding power all the way to the limiter but would like more torque all the way too

I do very much heavy traffic driving with the car being between 1 and 3k, so this is important to me

Cheers!

 

[sideways danny]

There is a slight trade off, but nothing that makes the car bad to drive

 

[Daz Clio Cup]

can't use them with stock pistons unless you machine deeper valve pockets, and not by a mile on the stock ECU

really? my h/comp pistons run fine with 422's. 422's have the same max lift as 428's so why wouldn't they be ok? and you only need to upgrade the map sensor to make the stock ecu like 422's iirc. personally speak to paul at RS Tuning or henk as far as stock ecu's go.

your best of putting catcams springs in for 422's cos of higher lift, to stop binding and valve bounce.

 

[Daz Clio Cup]

There is a slight trade off, but nothing that makes the car bad to drive

Can't comment about 428's torque but on my 422's i have more torque than standard throughout the rev range

 

[sideways danny]

of course the high comp pistons work fine with them, they have the larger cut-outs. Max lift is NOT the issue, lift at TDC is. Upgrade the map sensor?? how is that going to make the FBW throttle react faster to give you a respectable idle (which you can't get with 421s let alone 422s)

 

[sideways danny]

Can't comment about 428's torque but on my 422's i have more torque than standard throughout the rev range

you have massively raised compression!!!!!

 

[Icarus]

of course the high comp pistons work fine with them, they have the larger cut-outs. Max lift is NOT the issue, lift at TDC is. Upgrade the map sensor?? how is that going to make the FBW throttle react faster to give you a respectable idle (which you can't get with 421s let alone 422s)

Quite right it's not how far it lifts it that matters, its when it lifts it and how long it holds it there.

I think Daz is on about restricting the map sensor feed or running a secondary map sensor plenum as a signal damper. It's a load sensor afterall so you want its output to be representative of load rather than any spikes in pressure/vacuum present in the plenum - you can sort the latter in software but its quite often easier to do it mechanicaly. Quite a few OEM's have used MAP sensor plenums on high specifc output engine packages.

The standard DBW throttle and the driver/strat for it reacts way quicker than you'd need for simple idle control. It'll go from fully closed to fully open in around 300ms (and +/- 20% of current angle a lot quicker) which sounds a lot but is actualy pretty spot on as it gives you sufficent time elsewhere to control the transient and realisticaly you won't need to open a throttle any faster than that regardless. Its the same DBW throttle body as is being used on the Formula 2 engine package where its doing a stirling job of metering the airmass required for north of 225bhp/litre SO.

Cheers
M

 

[Fredy]

Icarus, could you help me with my dilemma?

All the details are in the first post.

Cheers

 

[Whiteley]

I love it when things get all techy!

 

[Daz Clio Cup]

of course the high comp pistons work fine with them, they have the larger cut-outs. Max lift is NOT the issue, lift at TDC is. Upgrade the map sensor?? how is that going to make the FBW throttle react faster to give you a respectable idle (which you can't get with 421s let alone 422s)

they have larger cutouts, because the piston crown is higher?

 

[Daz Clio Cup]

you have massively raised compression!!!!!

only 12.6:1 or so they are advertised, but have been told that woosner pistons aren't that much

 

[sideways danny]

FLOL!!!!! only 12.6:1

 

[Daz Clio Cup]

that's only a bout 10bhp

 

[sideways danny]

http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1844253147/?tag=cliospnet01-21

 

[Se7en172]

 

[Daz Clio Cup]

http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1844253147/?tag=cliospnet01-21

Load of rubbish, David Vizard books are the dog's bollox

 

[Fredy]

After all things considered Ill stick to my original idea - 428s.

Thank you all for useful infos

 

[powey]

lmao I think Daz and Danny need to get a room...

 

[Daz Clio Cup]

lmao I think Daz and Danny need to get a room...

only if you're paying, lol