Getting grip... tyres, spacers, suspension?

[chris blue]

My Clio ph1 overhaul after purchasing in October 2016 going pretty well. Lots done, with the throttle body issue being most stubborn. Almost there with that hopefully. All decaled up in 172 blue stickers too.

Gearbox oil, checkout/adjust the coilover suspension and height, only got 20mm spacers on back so got to do something on front, and couple more tyres is about it to do, other than strip out rear seats.

My question is i gave it a bit of stick today, got to some real nice speeds and seems pretty responsive performance wise. Only concern now is that as i am getting more confident, notice that my grip isnt what i am comfortable with. Weather was a little damp admittedly, but i like the feeling of security when cornering, and grip when taking off and accelerating.

Any suggestions or is it just tyres?

Car is quite low as it is. Thinking removing spacers to see how it runs then?

 

[STEVE.M]

My Clio ph1 overhaul after purchasing in October 2016 going pretty well. Lots done, with the throttle body issue being most stubborn. Almost there with that hopefully. All decaled up in 172 blue stickers too.

Gearbox oil, checkout/adjust the coilover suspension and height, only got 20mm spacers on back so got to do something on front, and couple more tyres is about it to do, other than strip out rear seats.

My question is i gave it a bit of stick today, got to some real nice speeds and seems pretty responsive performance wise. Only concern now is that as i am getting more confident, notice that my grip isnt what i am comfortable with. Weather was a little damp admittedly, but i like the feeling of security when cornering, and grip when taking off and accelerating.

Any suggestions or is it just tyres?

Car is quite low as it is. Thinking removing spacers to see how it runs then?

What tyres,sizes & rim ET are you currently running?

 

[chris blue]

A mix of Toyo Tr1 and Toyo proxy 4's, 2 of which are new, and 2 are 4mm (tr4's )but will change those 2 soon for new TR1s.

Realise they arent the greatest in the wet, but want Toyos all round for the track as theyre cheap.
Have another set of rims which will be putting PS3's on for non track use in summer.

15inch rims, with 195 50s on. ET 43.

 

[imprezaworks]

T1r on track? Complete waste of money and sanity when doing a track day. Just buy some federal rsr as they are a nice balance. Also mixing tyres won't be helping matters.

 

[chris blue]

T1r on track? Complete waste of money and sanity when doing a track .

Knew someone would say that, and not saying your wrong, but have friends who say theyre OK and quite stable for the track. Not R888s obvs.

T1R.. my bad

 

[imprezaworks]

Okie dokie.

 

[172_Tom]

Using T1Rs on track because they are cheap is false economy really as they will wear quicker than something like an AD08R. AD08Rs are better even in the wet too.

 

[STEVE.M]

Knew someone would say that, and not saying your wrong, but have friends who say theyre OK and quite stable for the track. Not R888s obvs.

T1R.. my bad

And you`ve got friends on here telling you they are excrement.
https://www.camskill.co.uk/m12b0s662p137471/Federal_Tyres_Trackday_Track_Day_Federal_595RSR_Federal_595_RSR_-_195_50_R15_82W_(140)_TL_Fuel_Eff_:_F_Wet_Grip:_E_NoiseClass:_2_Noise:_70dB
You could run the PS3`s if it rains.
With ET43 (OZ f1`s?) I would personally put the 20mm spacers on the front & get some 10mm MAD or PMS hub to beam spacers for the rear, with 1 degree neg camber.
What suspension are you running?

 

[imprezaworks]

I've tried on track, normal and a track clio

Rsr twice
Hankook v12's
Pe2
Ado8r's
888
And another track orientated tyre, forget the name now

On the pe2(16")i couldn't wait to swap to rsrs (15).

 

[imprezaworks]

I would also buy 205's. Maybe in my head but go better with them.

 

[chris blue]

Federals are pretty much track specific, and dont want to run track specifics really (this year)

Your point on spacers seems worthwhile, but dont see why everyone recommends a front wheel spacing greater than the rear. Always worked the other way round on my other motors. But will get some 10mm i reckon.

Suspension- AP coilovers which i will get aligned prior to track.

 

[chris blue]

I would also buy 205's. Maybe in my head but go better with them.

Did think that. Maybe for my second set.

Maybe my second set of rims, postpone the powder coating, stick some used r888s see how they go.

Dont tell the mrs, but maybe a 3rd dirt cheap set of clean rims with track specifics on. .. ..

 

[Knuckles]

Federals are pretty much track specific, and dont want to run track specifics really

Your point on spacers seems worthwhile, but dont see why everyone recommends a front wheel spacing greater than the rear. Always worked the other way round on my other motors. But will get some 10mm i reckon.

Suspension- AP coilovers which i will get aligned prior to track.

Id hazard a guess that a wider front track will keep the front planted and let the rear move a bit more to help turn in.

Is buying a second set of alloys to fit track tyres an option for you?

I've got continentals on my road wheels which are so so on track in the wet so I'm after rainsports. And I've got Nankang ns2rs on my track wheels which are adequate for my ability in the dry.

 

[DannyR]

I've always had R888 but currently running NS2R which are a great all around tyre for a track tyre.

T1Rs are rubbish!

 

[chris blue]

Is buying a second set of alloys to fit track tyres an option for you?.

i do have a second set i was gonna fit PS3s to, get them powder coated (blue) and drive to the shows/ track in them. Then swap to the TR1s and drive home in them.

 

[imprezaworks]

Federals are pretty much track specific, and dont want to run track specifics really (this year)

Your point on spacers seems worthwhile, but dont see why everyone recommends a front wheel spacing greater than the rear. Always worked the other way round on my other motors. But will get some 10mm i reckon.

Suspension- AP coilovers which i will get aligned prior to track.

Rsr are fine in this weather imo. People run 888's when it's wet and aslong as it's not standing water you should be fine.

 

[Knuckles]

i do have a second set i was gonna fit PS3s to, get them powder coated (blue) and drive to the shows/ track in them. Then swap to the TR1s and drive home in them.

How much are R1Rs in your size?

I've heard good things about them in the dry and the wet.

From what I understand. The t1rs are top of the budget tyres. So you may be better off getting something for wet and daily driving then a proper track tyre for the blue wheels.

rather than a set of wheels with performance road tyres and another with budget tyres

 

[imprezaworks]

Good call on the r1r. Supposed to be ace in the wet.

 

[Knuckles]

Good call on the r1r. Supposed to be ace in the wet.

I could be wrong but I think they're what Tony hunter runs on his race car?

 

[STEVE.M]

Federals are pretty much track specific, and dont want to run track specifics really (this year)

Your point on spacers seems worthwhile, but dont see why everyone recommends a front wheel spacing greater than the rear. Always worked the other way round on my other motors. But will get some 10mm i reckon.

Suspension- AP coilovers which i will get aligned prior to track.

10mm is popular choice, as 20mm will scuff if you run 205`s.
AP have no camber adjustment,so you will need some Eibach bolts if you want to play.

 

[imprezaworks]

I could be wrong but I think they're what Tony hunter runs on his race car?

Yup. And nice cheeky name edit

 

[STEVE.M]

https://www.camskill.co.uk/m12b0s662p121078/Toyo_Tyres_Trackday_Track_Day_Toyo_R1R_Proxes_Toyo_R1_R_-_195_50_R15_82V_TL_Fuel_Eff_:_G_Wet_Grip:_C_NoiseClass:_3_Noise:_73dB
No 205`s in 15 though.
Might give these a try when my 595`s are shot.
205/45R16`s are pricey @£95 a corner though.

 

[Knuckles]

Yup. And nice cheeky name edit :wink:

Lol yup!

Toby hunter might use them too to be fair

 

[imprezaworks]

Nah he uses t1r's

 

[chris blue]

Whats the thoughts on 2 different pairs tyres upfront, and at rear?

The things one reads ...

"Proxes T1R is an ultra-high performance tire designed exclusively for high-end sport sedans and coupes. The Proxes T1R features a refined tread design and construction that offers improved dry and wet handling and performance. A wide range of sizes are available in V, W and Y speed ratings."

 

[STEVE.M]

Whats the thoughts on 2 different pairs tyres upfront, and at rear?

The things one reads ...

"Proxes T1R is an ultra-high performance tire designed exclusively for high-end sport sedans and coupes. The Proxes T1R features a refined tread design and construction that offers improved dry and wet handling and performance. A wide range of sizes are available in V, W and Y speed ratings."

Set of 4 is best.
Are you on their US web site?

 

[chris blue]

Set of 4 is best.
Are you on their US web site?

Yes, 4 would be best. Just wondered if there were any major drawbacks. Grippy on front, performance on back

Just took it from the first ad on google- saw tire was spelt the Yank way.

Feedback generally 50:50 on T1Rs. Nit so good in the wet, seem good in the dry. Noisyish, and dont wear particularly well, altho good in dry, cheap high performance with decent strength walls.

Deflate them a bit in the wet i guess

 

[imprezaworks]

Seems your set on the t1r's lol. They look good, cheap but will ruin a trackday experience unless you drive like miss daisy. Awaits the 'well I drive on £5 tyres and they were great, just need to be careful'

Sigh.

It's the main point of contact to the road. Not saying spend hundreds, but £200 ish for 4 decent all round tyres is a no brainer.

 

[McGherkin]

T1Rs are crap. I ran Nexen N2000s against them back to back and the Nexens were better.

For a 1*2 I'd run Pilot Sport 3/4 if driven daily, and Federal RSR/AD08R if tracked.

Cheaping out on tyres is pretty much the worst thing you can do because it's like having crap suspension, a crap engine and crap brakes all rolled into one. Vice versa applies.

 

[chris blue]

Seems your set on the t1r's lol. They look good, cheap but will ruin a trackday experience unless you drive like miss daisy. Awaits the 'well I drive on £5 tyres and they were great, just need to be careful'

Sigh.

It's the main point of contact to the road. Not saying spend hundreds, but £200 ish for 4 decent all round tyres is a no brainer.

I do take your point, but i already have 2 new ones fitted. £88. And nothing suggested so far is that price fitted. So 2 more wont hurt. This thread will make me think what to fit on my other set of wheels, and if they will be track specific or just track biased.

T1rs be fine in the dry. They have so far. Its just the wet makes them spin at the front with little effort. Thats why maybe put them on the back, and 2 federals on front?

 

[STEVE.M]

Yes, 4 would be best.
Feedback generally 50:50 on T1Rs. Nit so good in the wet, seem good in the dry. Noisyish, and dont wear particularly well, altho good in dry, cheap high performance with decent strength walls.
Deflate them a bit in the wet i guess

Consumer feedback is written by idiots.
Ever come across a tyre that had improved performance in the wet compared to on a dry track/road?
Noisy, you won`t notice over the induction noise in a Clio, though you should hear the squeal in the corners.
If they lasted 20K miles, not much use on track are they?
If it rains, put your PS3`s on.

 

[imprezaworks]

Four rsrs are 205 ish plus 30 ish fitted?

Two more r1r's are £88 fitted?

So for an extra £150 you will have 4 great tyres?

Or buy 2 rsrs at 120 fitted and save 125 on the four, or there Abouts.

If your determined to stick with the t1r's get another two. I wouldn't personally

 

[Knuckles]

Mismatching tyres is a bad idea too. Unless you're wanting oversteer?

When I bought my track wheels they had two ns2rs and two conti 3s. So I put the performance road tyres on the back and the track tyres on the front.

Straight away, even when cold, the ns2rs had much more grip than the contis and gave me a couple of slidey moments.

Would definitely recommend four matching tyres. And track tyres for track and good wet tyres for wet/road driving.

 

[chris blue]

Federal rsrs not recommended for road use then

 

[STEVE.M]

I do take your point, but i already have 2 new ones fitted. £88. And nothing suggested so far is that price fitted. So 2 more wont hurt. This thread will make me think what to fit on my other set of wheels, and if they will be track specific or just track biased.

T1rs be fine in the dry. They have so far. Its just the wet makes them spin at the front with little effort. Thats why maybe put them on the back, and 2 federals on front?

Federals in the wet will be as bad as T1R`s
If you must, get another pair of T1R`s & run them in the dry on track.
For road & wet track use, get some PS3`s or Rainsport 3`s or anything with a wet grip A rating on your other set of rims!
Alternatively sell the 2 TiR`s you have, and start again with R1R`s or 595R`s as a set of 4.

 

[Ads29]

I've said it previously on other threads but R1r's are stunning in the wet and more than adequate on a drying surface at Combe in my experience, OK they are slightly more expensive (£250 for a set of 195/50/15) but speaking as someone with experience of running the 'wrong' tyres on track, spending a little more will give you a much better experience, I started off by buying second hand 888's to begin with, which for me were fine whilst developing both the car and my driving skills.

I do get the point you make in saying that some tyres are brand new, however I really do think the advice above is spot on, a lot of cheaper tyres just aren't designed to be punished around a track, I've watched road tyres be destroyed in no time at all on track ultimately resulting in a false economy let alone other possible problems from a tyre failing (again my experience from running the wrong tyres and spinning at high speed around Combe)

I guess a lot comes down to whether you want to just enjoy a run around a few circuits in which case T1r's will probably suffice or whether you intend to push your car more toward its limits, if its the latter then I would strongly suggest a more capable tyre.

I hope my waffling is of some help, I've learnt the hard way and been lucky not to have picked up any serious damage

 

[imprezaworks]

Spot on

 

[STEVE.M]

Federal rsrs not recommended for road use then

They are road legal,but are you aware of these?
http://www.blackcircles.com/general/tyre-labelling/tyre-label
The most important thing you are interested in for road & wet use is the WET rating. A is very good. E is significantly not.
Personally I won`t drive on the road with anything less than A.

T1R`s & 595`s are E, R1R`s are C
PS3`s,RS3`s,ZV7`s etc are all A.

Actually we have been waiting for a chap like you to come along for a long time.
I`m not sure if you have seen these before, but they are B rated wet grip & look the biz
https://www.camskill.co.uk/m53b0s99...Eff_:_E_Wet_Grip:_B_NoiseClass:_3_Noise:_73dB

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=d...hUKEwjx9_OEn7PRAhXDvRoKHZwrCNcQ_AUIBygC&dpr=1

Would you like to try a set of 4,as none of us have got the bottle?
They will probably be better than your original Toyo mix.

 

[chris blue]

The replies to my OP suggest that mostly people think tyres are most important to grip. Cant say Im too surprised.

May well get a set of 4 x PS3s/4s for everyday and wet use, and some track specific tyres x 4 probably nexen ns2r's ad08r's, federal 595, or toyo r1r's

Any other suggestions? Need a track tyre that is road legal, more biased to dry than wet.
Seems you lot are swaying me ☺

What about buying used?

Just keep what ive got until lydden in May.

 

[chris blue]

Actually we have been waiting for a chap like you to come along for a long time.
I`m not sure if you have seen these before, but they are B rated wet grip & look the biz
https://www.camskill.co.uk/m53b0s99p136734/Deestone_Tyres_Car_Deestone_R302_Vincente_Deestone_R_302_-_195_50_R15_82V_TL_Fuel_Eff_:_E_Wet_Grip:_B_NoiseClass:_3_Noise:_73dB

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=d...hUKEwjx9_OEn7PRAhXDvRoKHZwrCNcQ_AUIBygC&dpr=1

Would you like to try a set of 4,as none of us have got the bottle?
They will probably be better than your original Toyo mix.

Ha! Righto- people carrier tyres? Thats what the link says

Have had good experiences with PS3s so prob go with them. Track tyre, not sure yet