handling setup and engine - Renault Talk.

[James20VT]

Ok went to renault yesterday to sort that squeeling noise out which some of us thought may be a belt slipping or something...

turns out its just the front of the decat pipe where it fits into the bottom of manifold pipe where the bearing is or something.. its just squeeking.. he said with a bit more movement it will probably clean itself... and wasnt concerned at all over it... so we left it at that... while i had him in the car driving it... i belted a few questions at him...

Q. Clios and turbos - what you think?

his reply: To be honest mate.. when i worked in london, i tuned a williams, it had a supercharger kit fitted to it from belgium, and NOS. and to tell you the truth. it was very disappointing the results... wasnt at all what he expected.. and apparently the guy paid £3000 for it to be done.. (quiet cheap!)? and it wasnt that much better than standard.

Also said stuff about the compression ratio etc was a pain with them too. cant remember whole conversation

Q.Suspension and lowering.

reply: and again mate.. disappointing really... what you have as standard, is what reanult recommend for optimum road performance.... ok if you were going to be racing on a track where the road surface was the same.. and u were going around the same angled corners all the time... so you could fine tune the suspension to ur liking around the track. But what renault have put on the williams... if perfect... changing it now and lowering it.. you will make it worse. and you will usually find Clios lose it from the front end first.. so unless you are planning on just using it for looks etc.. then i really wouldnt bother.

quiet helpful this bloke was.. he also commented on how nice the car sounded with the scorpion exhaust and hill power induction kit...

also asked about having my wheels refurbd and Renault are setting up a body and accessories workshop here. so i will be able to go there and get them done.. yay

 

[STICKER TWONK]

I didnt think lowering improved any cars handling, companies spend millions developing suspension for cars just for someone to come along and put £50 springs on it!

 

[RobFenn]

Manufactures have to look at the customer base, and they have to compromise performance for comfort. Many people fit coilovers to their cars thinking it will be the dogs but they dont realise the coilovers are designed for track use, on the road this converts to skittish, unfriendly and nervous handling. The car may have more grip but it wont be any more of a joy to drive. Personally id try and get the best suspension gear i could, but only if im planning to do some track work, otherwise i wouldnt bother at all.

 

[rockport]

fair points,

in regards to the suspension and lowering subject... i can kinda understand why he said that the current ride height has been set for best performance etc.. however did he mean this for all round conditions?

stiff suspension = less body roll = quicker corning ?

the std suspension on the 16/willy is quite soft in my view.. as good as these cars are at cornering, sometimes you cant help but feel alittle body roll. surley harder suspension would improve this?

i dare say if you was to race round the twists with your current suspension setup Vs a willy which had a more firmer setup (not necessary lower) you would come out worse?

Im getting some uprated suspension slapped on "very" shortly, and i expect an improvment... otherwise there coming off.

 

[KDF]

stiffer suspension is good, but if your going round a corner really fast an there is a big bump in the road the back wheels will kinda skip over the road surface .. possibly causing oversteer (happend to me once in my lowered 205 GTi)

Its deffinatly a plus in the looks department though.. cant stand cars that look like 4x4s

 

[Steveold]

Sorry but i really disagree with all this poo..... Go get some adjustables on your car and tell me they are not better than standard sh*te.... I drive on the road like its a race track anyway.... Who cares about bumps just let your tyres down a bit if your reactions cant take it.....

 

[RobFenn]

hmmm

 

[Eddd]

The Willy suspension is great stock. It is the best Ive experienced in a FWD car. It is silly to lower a car and expect it to handle better without a lot of work. Look at the WRC cars and youll see a sensible ride height. And they are certainly trying to go as fast as possible on real roads. They also have unlimited budgets.

Track cars are a different story. They drop them down very low and run rock hard springs. They also run on billiard table smooth surfaces.

Real world roads are much more like rally stages than circuits. You should set your car up accordingly. Leave the low riders to the Chicanos.

 

[Anders]

Most suspension systems on road cars are all roughly based on the Macpherson strut sytem, with one lower wishbone. I know some have double unequal length wishbones and stuff but generally just the one is regulation. Now because it is fixed and the chassis end and top strut end, the whole wheel up and down movement is around the scribed arc of the said geometry. When you lower it just using springs only, you alter the standard base setting and its position around the arc, so when cornering the loads calculated previously are not the same anymore.

Race cars KNOW they will be on smooth tarmac and therefore can run super hard settings with wheel frequencies in the hundreds (road cars have around 50-80).

Suspension settings are very tricky, and it is a whole subject on its own, you have got to consider firstrly..static roll center front and back. Centre of Gravity and weight of each corner. Dynamic roll centre and CoG movement then the suspension workings itself like load transfers, unsprung weight, inboard/outboard set up, pull-rod/ push-rod systems...etc.

Having said all this, the Drummond motorsport coilovers I have got on the rally Impreza are excellent. It is entirely up to the individual, but I giggle everytime I see a car on the deck with huge alloys on it..they think it will handle better...NO IT WONT.

 

[RobFenn]

Well said, even though a lot of it went over my head lol.

 

[Anders]

As I said it is a VERY complex art and not something to be taken lightly.

 

[STICKER TWONK]

Yep, I agree with KDF, Anders and Edd but not Steve! If low, rock hard suspensions was best for road use, why do we not see it on any production car, even Ferrari have suspension thats not rock hard and has a sensible ride height.

 

[rockport]

i hear what your saying... in ideal conditions a car that 2cms from the floor with firm springs is going out corner any landrover on track...

Renault set up our cars to give the best all round performance, and a good job they done too. however, no matter what way you look at it by uprating your suspension for a slightly more firmer feel (not rock solid) then of course its going to make your car perform better (maybe giving you a sore arse too). Ride height is not as important i would imagine... tho anything with a lower centre of gravity is going to reduce body roll.. making you less top heavy.

WRC cars are up and down like a YOYO..

Flat tarmac = firm & low

Rocky bumpy gravel = soft & higher ride height,

 

[STICKER TWONK]

Oh and my cars not lowered cos of all the above!

 

[Steveold]

Who was on about getting lowering springs here? I was on about adjustable shorterned shocks and matched springs... The car is designed to be within design parameters if you lower bu say max 40mm its the people that lower there car with just springs say 60mm that spoil the handling of their car but they only do it for looks anyway....

The idea of having adjustables is to change the handling to match your own driving style.....

If you had the money you should spend the money for coilovers that way you could up the ride height and soften them for normal road use and lower it on the deck for track days..... Of course you would need to test the car before and remember the settings

 

[Steveold]

Did I say rock hard???? you need some give or should I weald some scafolding pole in there.... I tell you I can corner faster with uprated suspension....

 

[Steveold]

They are not on production cars because drivers cant handle the twitchy feel to hard setups..... Did you not watch that top gear where the stig setup the TVR for the fastest lap time but it was a handful..... he even lost it.... Its softer to make it easier to drive

 

[STICKER TWONK]

What car do you drive Steve?

 

[Steveold]

What at the moment or used to drive... I got done for dangerous driving so im down to a 1.2 16v coz insurance reasons... but ive had a XR3i (stage 3 head, cam etc) when I was 18, Renault 19 16v and have goes in me dads scooby(which he has sold now ) Ive put adjustables on all my cars and can corner faster with it.... you just got to be on the ball

 

[Tom]

the way i looked at it when i lowered mine

ok 172= good handling but its 35mm lower than my car to start with

ok 172 lowered 35mm more = great handling

so i need to drop mine 70mm to get optimum levels

im so gonna get flamed now

 

[Steveold]

LOL Tom you would need a good set of coilovers to be able to lower it that much and still have a car that handles...... The rears would have to be coilovers too like the real CUP racers.....

 

[RobFenn]

I think its fair to say everyone on here is an enthusiast, so we all would like to make suspension changes which are driver entertainment biased, though there is a mix as some people like it purely for cosmetic reasons. I will be getting coilovers for the Cup when i get it, purely because i intend to take it to Brands Hatch quite a bit, otherwise id keep it standard, its perfectly good as it is.

 

[16v_er]

The reson production cars do not have uprated suspension is cause it costs. It all about money with the manufactures. Unrated suspension does increase road handling due to the lower centre of gravity. Unfortuanately some companies advertise lowering springs on their own to magically transform handling. This is not the case and eventually the car becomes a pogo stick on wheels. If you want to corner faster get the complete package, shocks and all. As for the original post..... I can see where that blokes coming from, however any aspect of a car can be improved over standard.

 

[Steveold]

Well said 16v_er

 

[Anders]

I agree, most cars can be and are improved drastically, but you have to know what you are doing, it is not just a case of changing the springs.

You need to also need understand what all the changes do and how they will affect the balance. As well as shocks/springs there is the anti-roll bars and the bushes, but the single most important factor in all of this is the chassis itself, if you put harder suspension on then the chassis will have to cope with more stress and torsional stability IS THE KEY!! Anti-dive and squat geometry is available if you know how to implement it because this effects the transfer of weight from front to back and also side to side. Before you can spec ANY suspension settings you need to understand the forces involved and what you have underneath your ass.

 

[Matty]

Why is it any mod is useless to some people because if it was any good Renault would have fitted it as standard !!!

If the Clio was made to the best it could be they would cost a hell of a lot more money. All cars tend to be a compromise of some sorts, due to cost or wide range of potential user.

Cant comment on the suspension apart from the fact that mine feels crap on a 70k N reg 16v. Maybe its worn? Getting my FK automotive coilovers fitted on monday so hopefully can comment on a difference (good or bad) when it has settled in.

Any idea how long suspension should take to bed in as it cant operate at its full potential straight out of the box, or can it?

 

[Anders]

Yep should be ready to rock and roll straight out of the box.

It should feel better agreed, but how do you know its the optimum?? You see thats where all the maths come into it. You can cater for yourself and do it how you like but manufactures have to do it for a millions of people around the globe with different driving conditions and driving styles.

 

[woots]

TO be honest most people have a fair enough point of view here it depends what you want. I think my mates 5 is ruined by the drop, it is lowered by 60mm and it has put so much negative camber on the front wheels that it struggles for traction putting the power down, turns in quick though. It suffers on bumps because it doesnt have enough travel. The main problem with the williams as a rally car was lack of rear wheel travel, apparantly on a few of the rougher Irish tarmac stages at 100 mph they just looked horrific. But my mate loves his car, how flat it coners and if you drive hard enough it is still rapid but to me it feels so nervous when you hit bumps mid bend I cant push it as hard as I can the williams even though it will take it. The problem is there isnt a market for springs that slightly stiffen your car and only give a small drop, say 10mm or so. People talk about cost but by and large a spring costs the same, so if they wanted to Renault could have improved the cup by dropping it 30mm rather than 3mm over the normal 172.

 

[Matty]

Thought suspension would have to bed in a bit to get full travel, rebound etc?

Yeah car set up is all down to what the driver feels happiest with and all drivers are different. Hence why in racing drivers tune cars to what feels best for them.

I personally would prefer a car with lightening quick acceleration and lower top end as anything over a tonne is not necessary for the majority of driving. Quicker acceleration would be more usable every day, especially in emergencies.

Manufacturers obviously have to compromise and make cars to this end.

 

[Dazz F]

Well speaking from my own personal experience I will disagree with what the guy from Renault said. When I first got my car it was running on the original stock suspension which was in very good condition. I was very impressed and it handled very very well. When that wore out Decided to go for some coilovers and after spending a bit of time setting up and experimenting the handling is now unbelievable. It is not at all skittish, or nervy and is infact is now a very sure footed and well planted car. Also i use the car as an everyday drive on all types of road from small country roads right through to A and M roads and it is a dream on all of them. I just cant wait to get it on a track......

Dazz

 

[Matty]

Hope mine is the same Dazz after monday. Any tips for setting up and how much lower did you go?

 

[livio]

ive had koni adjustables on fiat bravo hgt and ive just put them on my clio ive kept them the same ride hight just changed the dampers and on both cars they stop faster and corner quicker and are better to drive because of it

 

[Steveold]

The reason the CUP was not lowered another 35mm is because you would be grounding out etc and a standard car from the manufacture doing something like that would be terrible....

 

[Dazz F]

Well initialy i went way too low and it was sh*te. Then i went to the equivalant of about 40mm at front and a bit higher at the back to keep the nose down stance. Basically the best advice i can give is to spend a bit of time experimenting to get the right setting for you. But always take measurements so that you can always go back to what you started with.

Let me know how you get on and what you think.

Dazz

 

[Nick Read]

One of the first mods I did to my valver was sorting out the suspension. I could talk technical about suspension settings but I wont cos its not my field of expertise. I leave that to Koni and trust that the reason they are still in business after all these years is because they design their suspension to work on specific cars that they make kits for. I dont think theres anyone claiming that just putting a set of lowering springs on is going to do great things for your handling, just like taking an angle grinder to them wouldnt either.

So what I can say is what I know about, and that is that my valver DEFINITELY drives better on Koni adjustable suspension all round. Accelerates, brakes, turns better. Im sure Renault do know what theyre doing but cars are designed for Mr Average. If any of us on here were just a Mr or Mrs Average, we would just drive the car around and not be a member of a club or have any interest in anything but getting from A to B. If you want to drive fast the first thing is to sort out the suspension and lower it. Now, I *have* recently driven a Williams, fast and for a decent run around the twisties (cheers Leigh!) and I have to say that standard suspension is the most sorted of any factory FWD car Ive driven. But it *is* different from that on a valver and I have no regrets about changing mine for Koni.

 

[livio]

well said nick,if you want speed it must handle well,look at the cooper s its down on power but coz you can carry speed through the corners point to point its quick,the first thing i always do to my cars is fit full koni,s,then go from there

 

[Anders]

Totally agree Nick, but thats taking it for granted that what Koni or any other manufacturer is doing is correct. What happens if you dont like it or want to adjust set up?? This is where you need to know what you are doing..stiffer not always means faster!! Plus its not only the shockers and springs that effect things!!

Go and get a good book and read!!

 

[BenR]

WOW!!!

go away for a few days and you mis a hell of a lot!

All i can say is the only man to get the full grasp is Anders, not saying anybody has a it wrong (well some do, but nevermind) but there is a whole lot to understand.

FACT: Production cars are a compramise, plain and simple. Rapid Proddy cars such as the Catherham R500 need an engine rebuild every few thou miles and its is not the most compramising car to drive, but it is fast.

You can improve any rd car with basic lowering and striffening, but dont go crazy. The key is to keep within bumpsteer settings. A car will naturally change camber and toe settings (mostly, but you get changes in SAI, and ackerman changes) as the suspension compresses. When you lower a car, effectvely, the TCA and static geometry setting go into compression settings, too low and your car will be running on safety setting which the car was designed with as a compramise for those who cant drive well. I.e. you are inclining it to understeer horridly.

Keep the TCAs from going inverted and most things will be fine.........

 

[BenR]

oh, just to add, off the shelf suspension is rebound adj only, which is where the lack of roll feeling comes into play...it compresses and stays compressed.

Ideally, you want at least and 1" 1/2" or travel.

Damping and springs rates are one thing, geometry is what makes a car handle......dont mess with what you dont know is a good thing......would you rip apart your engine if you didnt know what each part did and how to re-assemble?

 

[Anders]

Thank Christ for that...at last some kinda back up.