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Handling - Willy Vs 16v



  Clio 182 cup'd


Quote: Originally posted by king.stromba on 17 February 2004


Quote: Originally posted by word_easy on 17 February 2004


Quote: Originally posted by king.stromba on 17 February 2004


Quote: Originally posted by G16NNN on 17 February 2004


Quote: Originally posted by king.stromba on 17 February 2004


Changing the tyres would be like changing the springs to a diffent spring. A spring is a spring, does the same job, but you cant argue that it wouldnt effect the cars handling.
Of course but i think what hes trying to say is that tyres now are better

Remember we are talking about tyre SIZE not compound. A 185,55,15 is a 185,55,15 (assuming same manufacturer). But you could get it in different compounds. Im talking about size. For example the speed rating differes amongst tyres of the same size and manufacturer, with the result that one wears faster at higher speeds. If however both tyres are new, there would be little difference between the two in terms of grip.

than tyres then so surely changing the tyres will affect the cars handling POSITIVELY??

NO. Using a different size, even if a latest tyres will affect the cars handeling NEGATIVELY

Likewise for uprating other suspension parts??

NO. The Williams already has uprated suspension in that it has been setup to run this suspension. If you claim to be better than Renault Sport at Suspension geometry setup, feel free to have a go.

After all as much work as Renault did on the handling of the willy - as with all their cars they were limited to constraints by the fact that it was a mass produced road car!!

But was designed to primarily handle well. It wasnt a compromise car as much as something like a 172.

Whereas an individual owner would be willing to lose some of the comfort of the ride in favour of better handling performance?

If you feel you can improve the Williams please feel free to try. If you do you will probably just end up destroying that Williams feel, which is in essence why it got its reputation. Read the latest Renault brochure on the 182, V6 and Cup. There is a small section on the Williams - Quote unflappable poise on cornering Best Hot Hatch Ever. And thats in a brochure trying to sell the latest cars.







Why assume that newer more technically advanced tyres will have negative affects on a cars handling?

IM NOT TALKING ABOUT COMPOUND, IM TALKING ABOUT SIZE AND MANUFACTURER. Is that clear enough for you? A standard size Michelin Pilot will always work better than a different tyre on a Williams

I would much prefer to have some state of the art tyres over some that were designed over 10 years ago, regardless of whether or not a car was tested on them!

Well enjoy your trip into the scenary then, when your state of the art tyres fail to grip the road correctly and transplant you into the nearest tree.






Why will it? Have you got any evidence to prove this or it it another one of your opinions?
 


The question should be:

Do you have evidence that demostrates that your marketing and cost induced rubber choice outperformes the choice scientifically arrived at by Renaultsport after hundreds of miles of testing and millions of pounds of investment?
 
  Clio 182 cup'd


No, I never said I did!

All I did was ask if you have any evidence? Obviously you dont, otherwise you wouldnt have turned the question around on me (which I gave an honest straight answer too).
 


Come on king, tyre technology has moved on alot and the characteristic adjustability of a std willy isnt down to magic michelins.

You can improve the willy handling, its good i admit, but you can always improve and although they did err on the side of adjustability and excitement, they did retain some safety features in the chassis.

And why are you only talking about size and manufacturer, how does construction and materials not become the most important factor?

Ive read your entire posts and i cant see a conclusion your tryign to get at.
 
  Clio 190bhp Hybrid


Seems to me every production car is a compromise. One williams could be badly built compared to another (it is a Renault) so things can be improved.

Maybe a Clio Williams is that because of all the changes made to it in the first place, by Williams. Doesnt mean to say things cannot be improved by modern technology that has come about over the years and is now more affordable. Or make improvements with less compromises in mind, mpg, comfort, emmissions etc.

As for tyres, think all this talk is **** as you would have to test the Williams on the same roads, in same conditions with all the top choices availabel to make a statement as to what is best. Not just say that the original tyres are obviously best cuz thats what the car came with. Things move on, people shouldnt stay in teh past.
 


To put things in perspective (and laymans terms), I had a lowered 16V and now have a standard Williams. I think Im in a good position to comment!

Theres often a confusion between "grip" and "handling". My Valver would probably grip better than the Willy (not much incidentally), but without the full suspension travel it is comprehensively beaten down the local B-roads. Some of that is down to the low-down torque, but there is something pretty special about a Willy on my local roads - not that my 16V wasnt ace either. Where the 16V would be on the verge of losing grip, you can control the margins more effectively with a Williams and put the power down... = better progress.

It depends on what you buy the car for. If you spend most of your time on smooth tarmac (which is what most people do, living in urbanish areas), then you might not fully exploit the extra a Williams suspension setup gives. You could be best off with the latest Spax/BB/KTec shocks and a low ride height and fat tyres if this is so.

If, on the other hand, like me you live in Welsh rurality, then you WILL notice the benefit of an "adjustable, exciting, but safe setup" (as BenR put it). "Safe" isnt a cool word to use when talking about handling, but the 16V and Willy setup is a lot safer than, say, a Pug 205. Thats what also makes them faster from A to B IMO, as you can explore the potential without the almost certainty of a grim death. :eek:

I think Stromba was talking more about the general quality and size of tyres - and Id agree. A set of tyres with loads more grip would probably come at the expense of flexibility (unless the properties of rubber have changed). I dont think you can get the Michelin Pilot HX series any more anyway. Whats the most suitable replacement?
 
  Embarrassed to say


Assuming the willy is the best handling hot hatch - is it possible to get my cup to handle on a par with a willy.

The LAD conversion car seemed to have some kind of suspension mod to it plus they fitted it with gold alloys perhaps suggesting that it would handle as good as a willy.
 


People off this forum make me laugh sometimes. I wonder if anyone has any idea what actually happened during the manufacturer of the Williams, or any other car for that matter. How can i argue with poeple who claim that tyre technology has advanced because they listened to a Good Year advert on TV. You will never get through to such people. Instead of making wild claims about advancing tyre technology why dont you do some research, write some letters, ask alot of questions, and get the facts from the people who know. I CAN ASSURE YOU EXPERTS WHO KNOW, CLAIM THE BEST TYRE FOR THE WILLIAMS IS THE MICHELIN PILOT THAT RENAULT RECOMENDS.

I didnt know alot about tyres. I admit its not my area, thats why i wrote some letters and got the write answers. I educated myself.

Instead of sweeping statements and generalisations, why dont some of you do the same? You never know you may learn something.
 
  Fiat Coupe 20v turbo


What are the benefits of 185 tyres over cheaper 195 width tyres, surely we can agree 195s willl give more grip so what do you mean by the original 185 being better, in what way?
 


really dont see the point of changing over to willy wishbones, and antiroll

King youve already said a trained driver can push the same car 20% more than u can, so is willy wishbones gonna make every 16v driver 20% better???? lol

lets all go on a track training day;)
 

Daz.

ClioSport Club Member
  Clio 200 RS EDC


By the time I can push my standard valver to its limit round the twisties well all be in hover cars... then it wont matter!

what rubber did standard valvers wear?
 


Quote: Originally posted by king.stromba on 17 February 2004


People off this forum make me laugh sometimes. I wonder if anyone has any idea what actually happened during the manufacturer of the Williams, or any other car for that matter. How can i argue with poeple who claim that tyre technology has advanced because they listened to a Good Year advert on TV. You will never get through to such people. Instead of making wild claims about advancing tyre technology why dont you do some research, write some letters, ask alot of questions, and get the facts from the people who know. I CAN ASSURE YOU EXPERTS WHO KNOW, CLAIM THE BEST TYRE FOR THE WILLIAMS IS THE MICHELIN PILOT THAT RENAULT RECOMENDS.

I didnt know alot about tyres. I admit its not my area, thats why i wrote some letters and got the write answers. I educated myself.

Instead of sweeping statements and generalisations, why dont some of you do the same? You never know you may learn something.
Righto then......

ow im not saying your hung up on the percieved blasphemy that non willy owners might sound like they are splurging out to you, but it does seem that you are about as hardcore a willy owner as they come. If i owned a willy i would have no hand ups about making it better......yet you say impossible.

You say the michelins are the quote best tyre for the williams. Now on that statement alone youd have to define best. Best for what? daily use. I sure as hell bet 100% of racing drivers or professional drivers (and i have been racing competitively for about 14years now) would swap to whatever tyre gave them the fastest lap time. Sure, they might stay with the miches if fun was the main consideration.

But again, tyre technology has moved on, weve been through many different tread design theories trying to minimise tread shuffle, from assymetric, to directional, and back to the block design. Compounds have moved on and soft silicas are used, carcasses have become harder and lighter. Now please dont say thats nonsense as you know im not a half baked moron.

What i think your more interested in is that the miches are the best tyres for YOU.

Renault didnt spen MILLIONS on the development, it was a conglomeation between them and williams, with a few bits and bobs off other cars that gave a usefull benefit.

And i dont see how you writing a few letters to a few people, and on the word of one driver, have become a leading authority.

We all have opnions on whats best......you like it 100% willy, but i wouldnt go ramming it down other peoples throats and generalising comments on other people intelligence.

All this scientific evidence you state, i see none so far.
 


Quote: Originally posted by Daz0rz on 17 February 2004


By the time I can push my standard valver to its limit round the twisties well all be in hover cars... then it wont matter!

what rubber did standard valvers wear?
Durex......oops, no thats willys ;)
 
  Fiat Coupe 20v turbo


Quote: Originally posted by BenR on 17 February 2004


Quote: Originally posted by king.stromba on 17 February 2004


People off this forum make me laugh sometimes. I wonder if anyone has any idea what actually happened during the manufacturer of the Williams, or any other car for that matter. How can i argue with poeple who claim that tyre technology has advanced because they listened to a Good Year advert on TV. You will never get through to such people. Instead of making wild claims about advancing tyre technology why dont you do some research, write some letters, ask alot of questions, and get the facts from the people who know. I CAN ASSURE YOU EXPERTS WHO KNOW, CLAIM THE BEST TYRE FOR THE WILLIAMS IS THE MICHELIN PILOT THAT RENAULT RECOMENDS.

I didnt know alot about tyres. I admit its not my area, thats why i wrote some letters and got the write answers. I educated myself.

Instead of sweeping statements and generalisations, why dont some of you do the same? You never know you may learn something.
Righto then......

ow im not saying your hung up on the percieved blasphemy that non willy owners might sound like they are splurging out to you, but it does seem that you are about as hardcore a willy owner as they come. If i owned a willy i would have no hand ups about making it better......yet you say impossible.

You say the michelins are the quote best tyre for the williams. Now on that statement alone youd have to define best. Best for what? daily use. I sure as hell bet 100% of racing drivers or professional drivers (and i have been racing competitively for about 14years now) would swap to whatever tyre gave them the fastest lap time. Sure, they might stay with the miches if fun was the main consideration.

But again, tyre technology has moved on, weve been through many different tread design theories trying to minimise tread shuffle, from assymetric, to directional, and back to the block design. Compounds have moved on and soft silicas are used, carcasses have become harder and lighter. Now please dont say thats nonsense as you know im not a half baked moron.

What i think your more interested in is that the miches are the best tyres for YOU.

Renault didnt spen MILLIONS on the development, it was a conglomeation between them and williams, with a few bits and bobs off other cars that gave a usefull benefit.

And i dont see how you writing a few letters to a few people, and on the word of one driver, have become a leading authority.

We all have opnions on whats best......you like it 100% willy, but i wouldnt go ramming it down other peoples throats and generalising comments on other people intelligence.

All this scientific evidence you state, i see none so far.
Thankyou Ben R, you said it better than I could. King does get a bit heavy on Original Rules.
 
  2005 Nissan Navara


i think the point king is makin is that renault spent a great deal of time and effort developing the williams suspension set-up. the tyre choice was the michelin, maybe the best in its day? now, because the set-up was designed round/used this specific tyre, it will not perform the same with any other tyre, regardless that newer is better.

u do not need scientific proof to understand sheer logic, do u??
 


sheer logic?

I think the point is whilst im sure the willy setup/ michelins are damn fine, there still a compromise.
 
  Fiat Coupe 20v turbo


It may not perform the same I was just wondering better how. I think increased grip is better for an average/road driver as once grip limit is exceeded the car is not in full control.
 


I know what hes saying, cor you do like to point out the obvious.....

and the proof was a retort.....logic defies your understanding of sarcasm then?
 
  2005 Nissan Navara


weight-

i also think the other point he was making was that the standard set-up would be superior than a normal driver would ever require. ever.

do u honestly think that 99% of williams owners can drive their car hard enough to warrant coil-overs etc. let alone be able to feel the benefits. the standard set-up is therefore far from a comprimise
 


Thanks stan, that so called mechanics cannot see what effort goes into suspension development around a single tyre compound amazes me. They have obviously never had experience or talked to a race engineer.

Ben you show your complete ignorance on matter relating to the history of the Williams by claiming that the Williams Grand Prix Team had an influence over the car. They did not. If youd have spoken to Sir Franks son, as i have, you would know Williams lent nothing to Renault, bar the name Williams. ALL development was performed by BOTH Renaultsport AND Michelin. Of course you would have known the influence Michelin had in the development, having written to the Michelin tyre company, wouldnt you?

This is very anecdotal, but a certain ex race driver / journalist, who recently drove my Williams, was seen looking at my cars tyres. I asked what was interesting and he explained it was good to see the original tyres on the car. Elaborating he described in great detail how Renault spent an exorbatant amount of time trying to set the car up solely to run perfectly on the Michelins. Of course you would have known this having been there right?

In this argument, one one hand we have Renaultsport, Michelin, various ex-drivers, journalists and engineers i have corresponded with stating that the original Michelin Pilots are the way to go. On the other we have some net mechanics who feel that for some reason because they read somewhere that tyres are more advanced it would be better to just slap any old size rubber on as long as it was new.

Talk about the blind leading the blind.
 


No, not many dirvers can get anywhere near the limits of the average sports hatch/car.

BUT, that doesnt mean that they cant upgrade or change to what they prefer, feel is better/safer for themselves and ultimately be able to go faster with a different setup.
 
  Fiat Coupe 20v turbo


Some people keep the original Michelins and some others change to newer tyres, whatever they prefer.There is no right and wrong tyre just different choices THE END
 
  2005 Nissan Navara


yes, but since they cant get near the limits, how can they benefit from increasing them. im not talking safety, im talking about how the vehicle actually handles.

martin-

its not about right or wrong. its about keeping the suspension set-up within the original parameters. its not wrong 2 use eagle F1s, its just better using michelin
 


Quote: Originally posted by stan* on 18 February 2004


weight-

i also think the other point he was making was that the standard set-up would be superior than a normal driver would ever require. ever.

it cannot be superior to a normal drivers requirements, as none of us are normal it is a compromise. they guy pushing 20% harder than Mr Stromba only proved he is more aware of the limits of your superior setup

do u honestly think that 99% of williams owners can drive their car hard enough to warrant coil-overs etc. let alone be able to feel the benefits. the standard set-up is therefore far from a comprimise

if anyone has lost control of the williams then yes they can drive hard enough

personally i think this whole topic only show the pros driving ability in a standard williams, let him modify the williams to his preferance and he could go from 20% to 30% quicker driver than Mr Stromba
 
  172 Cup, V6 255, Williams


WOW Deep!

A special OE tyre was developed for the Lotus Carlton - Goodyear Eagle (not F1) - and the hardcore LC owners still swear by these. However, its for nothing other than originaility. By todays tyre standards theyre way behind on most fronts.

Also, another thing - my last Williams Clio is on P-Zeros? Did they change to these?

Paul
 


You know King, for a guy whos spent the last year or so constantly asking questions and for help, then turns around to the people who have never once not offered help or advice, after 2 letters and talking to 2 people, has now become the leading authoity.

Sure i dont claim to profess the holy grail of willy knowledge on its history, but can sure as hell tell you more about your cars working than you can sitting next to it.

And if Ren spent alot of time setting it up to run solely on those tyres, why can anybody with knowledge, be it basic or mind blowing, be able to setup the car to run of different profile, brand and compound tyres?

Ignorance? Can nobody attemp or succeed?

SOrry for being a net mechanic.....due to my total lack of understanding i no longer feel i am able to help with any subject you might require.......Oh, but you didnt seem so worried about it when constanly asking me stuff before?

right, im off to ask michelin if their tyre is the best, im sure they will reccomend another brand. marketing.......ppppppppfffffft.
 
  2005 Nissan Navara


ahhh....!!

its not about wot tyre is better!!

its about wot the system was designed to use. its was designed/tested/developed with michelin rubber, therefore it should use michelin rubber
 
  Fiat Coupe 20v turbo


Quote: Originally posted by stan* on 18 February 2004


yes, but since they cant get near the limits, how can they benefit from increasing them. im not talking safety, im talking about how the vehicle actually handles.

martin-

its not about right or wrong. its about keeping the suspension set-up within the original parameters. its not wrong 2 use eagle F1s, its just better using michelin





Why are the michelins better, what have you based this judgement on? I think the F1s would have better grip and therefore would be my choice to be faster on road/track. The original tyres are a compromise, the Willy was not built to handle like a race car.
 
  Fiat Coupe 20v turbo


Quote: Originally posted by stan* on 18 February 2004


ahhh....!!

its not about wot tyre is better!!

its about wot the system was designed to use. its was designed/tested/developed with michelin rubber, therefore it should use michelin rubber
Is it inconcievable that there might be a tyre that is better than the original 10 yr Michelins in all performance aspects?
 
  2005 Nissan Navara


Quote: Originally posted by BenR on 18 February 2004


And if Ren spent alot of time setting it up to run solely on those tyres, why can anybody with knowledge, be it basic or mind blowing, be able to setup the car to run of different profile, brand and compound tyres?
tyres are different even within the same brand/compound.

wot do YOU mean by set-up?? if it is just 2 make the car gan round a corner, then u r mistaken
 


Quote: Originally posted by stan* on 18 February 2004


ahhh....!!

its not about wot tyre is better!!

its about wot the system was designed to use. its was designed/tested/developed with michelin rubber, therefore it should use michelin rubber
So, if we change the tyre, why cant we change the system; to work better with this.

And its not a miricle tyre, it doesnt fantastically transform the chassis. The michelins are softer its less edgy with them on. And what is less edgy good for, yes thats right.....the road and common road users.
 


Quote: Originally posted by stan* on 18 February 2004


tyres are different even within the same brand/compound.

So by definition, the same tyre?
Can we go into differences between each batch manufactuered now?

wot do YOU mean by set-up?? if it is just 2 make the car gan round a corner, then u r mistaken

What do i mean by setup, spring rates, damping rates, ride heights, castor, camber, toe front and rear.

Get round a corner, what the hell else are we setting the car up to do?
 
  2005 Nissan Navara


yes u can change the system. but its not as simple as changin is it. its about development.

BEN---i know its not a miracle tyre but it is the tyre that the set-up was developed around. that counts for a lot!!!

just 2 make myself clear (listen up martin!):

its not about wot tyre is better!!
 


And for the cup/172 owners......their car was designed around the contisport.....i dont see anybody complainig about changing tyre on that.

And sufficiently MORE time was spent on the 172/cup chassis than the willy.

Again, i see it as a die hard willy thing.

Some people are just addicted to orginality.
 


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