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Handling - Willy Vs 16v
- Thread starter Valver'o'Death
- Start date
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- Tags
- 16v
The question should be:
Do you have evidence that demostrates that your marketing and cost induced rubber choice outperformes the choice scientifically arrived at by Renaultsport after hundreds of miles of testing and millions of pounds of investment?
Come on king, tyre technology has moved on alot and the characteristic adjustability of a std willy isnt down to magic michelins.
You can improve the willy handling, its good i admit, but you can always improve and although they did err on the side of adjustability and excitement, they did retain some safety features in the chassis.
And why are you only talking about size and manufacturer, how does construction and materials not become the most important factor?
Ive read your entire posts and i cant see a conclusion your tryign to get at.
Seems to me every production car is a compromise. One williams could be badly built compared to another (it is a Renault) so things can be improved.
Maybe a Clio Williams is that because of all the changes made to it in the first place, by Williams. Doesnt mean to say things cannot be improved by modern technology that has come about over the years and is now more affordable. Or make improvements with less compromises in mind, mpg, comfort, emmissions etc.
As for tyres, think all this talk is **** as you would have to test the Williams on the same roads, in same conditions with all the top choices availabel to make a statement as to what is best. Not just say that the original tyres are obviously best cuz thats what the car came with. Things move on, people shouldnt stay in teh past.
To put things in perspective (and laymans terms), I had a lowered 16V and now have a standard Williams. I think Im in a good position to comment!
Theres often a confusion between "grip" and "handling". My Valver would probably grip better than the Willy (not much incidentally), but without the full suspension travel it is comprehensively beaten down the local B-roads. Some of that is down to the low-down torque, but there is something pretty special about a Willy on my local roads - not that my 16V wasnt ace either. Where the 16V would be on the verge of losing grip, you can control the margins more effectively with a Williams and put the power down... = better progress.
It depends on what you buy the car for. If you spend most of your time on smooth tarmac (which is what most people do, living in urbanish areas), then you might not fully exploit the extra a Williams suspension setup gives. You could be best off with the latest Spax/BB/KTec shocks and a low ride height and fat tyres if this is so.
If, on the other hand, like me you live in Welsh rurality, then you WILL notice the benefit of an "adjustable, exciting, but safe setup" (as BenR put it). "Safe" isnt a cool word to use when talking about handling, but the 16V and Willy setup is a lot safer than, say, a Pug 205. Thats what also makes them faster from A to B IMO, as you can explore the potential without the almost certainty of a grim death.
I think Stromba was talking more about the general quality and size of tyres - and Id agree. A set of tyres with loads more grip would probably come at the expense of flexibility (unless the properties of rubber have changed). I dont think you can get the Michelin Pilot HX series any more anyway. Whats the most suitable replacement?
Embarrassed to say
Assuming the willy is the best handling hot hatch - is it possible to get my cup to handle on a par with a willy.
The LAD conversion car seemed to have some kind of suspension mod to it plus they fitted it with gold alloys perhaps suggesting that it would handle as good as a willy.
People off this forum make me laugh sometimes. I wonder if anyone has any idea what actually happened during the manufacturer of the Williams, or any other car for that matter. How can i argue with poeple who claim that tyre technology has advanced because they listened to a Good Year advert on TV. You will never get through to such people. Instead of making wild claims about advancing tyre technology why dont you do some research, write some letters, ask alot of questions, and get the facts from the people who know. I CAN ASSURE YOU EXPERTS WHO KNOW, CLAIM THE BEST TYRE FOR THE WILLIAMS IS THE MICHELIN PILOT THAT RENAULT RECOMENDS.
I didnt know alot about tyres. I admit its not my area, thats why i wrote some letters and got the write answers. I educated myself.
Instead of sweeping statements and generalisations, why dont some of you do the same? You never know you may learn something.
Righto then......
ow im not saying your hung up on the percieved blasphemy that non willy owners might sound like they are splurging out to you, but it does seem that you are about as hardcore a willy owner as they come. If i owned a willy i would have no hand ups about making it better......yet you say impossible.
You say the michelins are the quote best tyre for the williams. Now on that statement alone youd have to define best. Best for what? daily use. I sure as hell bet 100% of racing drivers or professional drivers (and i have been racing competitively for about 14years now) would swap to whatever tyre gave them the fastest lap time. Sure, they might stay with the miches if fun was the main consideration.
But again, tyre technology has moved on, weve been through many different tread design theories trying to minimise tread shuffle, from assymetric, to directional, and back to the block design. Compounds have moved on and soft silicas are used, carcasses have become harder and lighter. Now please dont say thats nonsense as you know im not a half baked moron.
What i think your more interested in is that the miches are the best tyres for YOU.
Renault didnt spen MILLIONS on the development, it was a conglomeation between them and williams, with a few bits and bobs off other cars that gave a usefull benefit.
And i dont see how you writing a few letters to a few people, and on the word of one driver, have become a leading authority.
We all have opnions on whats best......you like it 100% willy, but i wouldnt go ramming it down other peoples throats and generalising comments on other people intelligence.
All this scientific evidence you state, i see none so far.
i think the point king is makin is that renault spent a great deal of time and effort developing the williams suspension set-up. the tyre choice was the michelin, maybe the best in its day? now, because the set-up was designed round/used this specific tyre, it will not perform the same with any other tyre, regardless that newer is better.
u do not need scientific proof to understand sheer logic, do u??
weight-
i also think the other point he was making was that the standard set-up would be superior than a normal driver would ever require. ever.
do u honestly think that 99% of williams owners can drive their car hard enough to warrant coil-overs etc. let alone be able to feel the benefits. the standard set-up is therefore far from a comprimise
Thanks stan, that so called mechanics cannot see what effort goes into suspension development around a single tyre compound amazes me. They have obviously never had experience or talked to a race engineer.
Ben you show your complete ignorance on matter relating to the history of the Williams by claiming that the Williams Grand Prix Team had an influence over the car. They did not. If youd have spoken to Sir Franks son, as i have, you would know Williams lent nothing to Renault, bar the name Williams. ALL development was performed by BOTH Renaultsport AND Michelin. Of course you would have known the influence Michelin had in the development, having written to the Michelin tyre company, wouldnt you?
This is very anecdotal, but a certain ex race driver / journalist, who recently drove my Williams, was seen looking at my cars tyres. I asked what was interesting and he explained it was good to see the original tyres on the car. Elaborating he described in great detail how Renault spent an exorbatant amount of time trying to set the car up solely to run perfectly on the Michelins. Of course you would have known this having been there right?
In this argument, one one hand we have Renaultsport, Michelin, various ex-drivers, journalists and engineers i have corresponded with stating that the original Michelin Pilots are the way to go. On the other we have some net mechanics who feel that for some reason because they read somewhere that tyres are more advanced it would be better to just slap any old size rubber on as long as it was new.
Talk about the blind leading the blind.
yes, but since they cant get near the limits, how can they benefit from increasing them. im not talking safety, im talking about how the vehicle actually handles.
martin-
its not about right or wrong. its about keeping the suspension set-up within the original parameters. its not wrong 2 use eagle F1s, its just better using michelin
WOW Deep!
A special OE tyre was developed for the Lotus Carlton - Goodyear Eagle (not F1) - and the hardcore LC owners still swear by these. However, its for nothing other than originaility. By todays tyre standards theyre way behind on most fronts.
Also, another thing - my last Williams Clio is on P-Zeros? Did they change to these?
Paul
You know King, for a guy whos spent the last year or so constantly asking questions and for help, then turns around to the people who have never once not offered help or advice, after 2 letters and talking to 2 people, has now become the leading authoity.
Sure i dont claim to profess the holy grail of willy knowledge on its history, but can sure as hell tell you more about your cars working than you can sitting next to it.
And if Ren spent alot of time setting it up to run solely on those tyres, why can anybody with knowledge, be it basic or mind blowing, be able to setup the car to run of different profile, brand and compound tyres?
Ignorance? Can nobody attemp or succeed?
SOrry for being a net mechanic.....due to my total lack of understanding i no longer feel i am able to help with any subject you might require.......Oh, but you didnt seem so worried about it when constanly asking me stuff before?
right, im off to ask michelin if their tyre is the best, im sure they will reccomend another brand. marketing.......ppppppppfffffft.
So, if we change the tyre, why cant we change the system; to work better with this.
And its not a miricle tyre, it doesnt fantastically transform the chassis. The michelins are softer its less edgy with them on. And what is less edgy good for, yes thats right.....the road and common road users.
yes u can change the system. but its not as simple as changin is it. its about development.
BEN---i know its not a miracle tyre but it is the tyre that the set-up was developed around. that counts for a lot!!!
just 2 make myself clear (listen up martin!):
its not about wot tyre is better!!
And for the cup/172 owners......their car was designed around the contisport.....i dont see anybody complainig about changing tyre on that.
And sufficiently MORE time was spent on the 172/cup chassis than the willy.
Again, i see it as a die hard willy thing.
Some people are just addicted to orginality.
