heel & toe technique

[225RS]

opppss....... is heel, not heal in the 2nd paragraph..

 

[Tom]

Quote: Originally posted by Eddd on 12 August 2004


Toypop, you are having trouble grasping the fact that we need to bring the revs up to a proper level and these are not close ratio boxes. Say Im approaching Aremberg at 170ish in 5th. I need to change down from 5th to 4th to 3rd, trailbraking the last bit. Heel toeing is the only way to do that smoothly.

Sure I could just bang it into the next lower gear, but that would do nothing for the longevity of the gearbox, clutch or engine. Nor would it help the balance of the car under threshold braking. It could in fact help to lock one of the fronts and give me a nice flatspot as well, not to mention a trip through the kitty litter and a taste of armco.

Matching revs is the way forward. Practice makes perfect.

Ill heel toe in my "fantasy" world. You can do whatever you like in yours.

Ed





*snigger*

 

[jon_r]

Eddd, you are my hero.

I cant wait to meet you if your coming to the Ring when we all go in September.

 

[Toypop]

Reality check boys: you drive Renault Clios not proper sports cars! Its just a glorified shopping car! For the last time they dont need to be heel and toed and the pedals are not really set up for doing it in anger even though it is possible. Sooner or later someone is going to have their foot slip off the brake pedal and get hurt.

Yes I have spun RWDs through not doing it and nearly come off my bike on a few occassions when I was learning but an FWD is absolutely fine.


I drove one of those Clio Cup touring cars at Bedford and with my struggles to get to grips with the left hand drive (trying to change down with the window winder) I made some pretty rough gear changes with badly matching revs. I can assure everyone reading this that contrary to what you read here, the wheels will NOT lock and you will NOT end up in the kitty litter - unless you are completely stupid and try putting it in first whilst taking a corner at 90mph...

I have never made such badly timed changes on the track in RHD cars and the wear and tear would be minimal compared to rest of the wear a track day leads to. Save the advanced techniques for when you move onto Caterhams and the like.


Now put down your copies of Max Power and get back to driving properly!

 

[jongsr4]

i dont read max power and i like to think i drive properly, i am very experience in terms of race driving, ive been racing since i was 10 years old, i use heel and toe all the time, contrary to what you say the clios pedals are nicely set for heel and toe, in fact it is part of the design brief to make sure the pedals are good for "enthusiastic" driving

My dad raced in the BTCC, but he now drives an escort, he can still heel and toe blip the throttle, whatever...........doesnt mean because its an escort you cant drive it properly

next thing youll be saying is that you cant left foot brake in a road car!

all this talk about locking up the wheels, thats all rubbish, heel and toe is a method of making sure your revs match the gear you are going for....whilst braking at the same time, the only way you could make the wheels lock up on a car for example is if you put it into a hideously wrong gear...like 1st at 60 or something, in which case youll probably sieze your engine too( and crash if your on a bike) anyway this is a clio forum

cant be bothered to explain much more really, you can heel and toe in any car, if you know what you are doing....even Renault Clios

 

[Mondial172]

Go Jon!!!!

Like me heel and toeing and blip the throttle in my Megane Scenic



On and their Renault Sport Clios!!!!!

 

[jongsr4]

Quote: Originally posted by Toypop on 12 August 2004


For the last time they dont need to be heel and toed

your right, no car needs to be H+Td but is fun and quicker to do so

so you might as well do it

 

[Toypop]

Quicker? The Clio (and similar small FWD cars) from my experience doesnt benefit from the smooth style that RWDs reward so much. They actually demand that you be quite abusive.


Fun? Yup totally agree it sure is. Also impresses your mates/birds when giving them a lift home.


Can sound sexy too in/on a vehicle with a revvy engine - which unfortunately the Clio doesnt have.


Now left foot braking is a different kettle of fish. Has a very limited application in a road car like the Clio with a clutch gear change. Ok you might slightly benefit from doing it in a corner if you dont have to change gear. At any other time though how on earth do you change gear with your left foot on the brake?? I would sure like to see someone film their feet doing that in an unmodified Clio footwell!

 

[007]

You can left foot brake, clutch and accelerate all at the sametime in my Girlfriends VTShttp://www.cliosport.net/forum/smileys/smiley16.gif Makes for an interesting and crunchy journey!

 

[jongsr4]

oh well, its all good fun

 

[Mondial172]

Drinks that yellow stuff in tins.........

Hes an idoit!

 

[James Bushell]

I dont think this is gonna go anywhere..?!?!..

People that cant H & T will never know the benefit, until theyve mastered and used it..!

I even H & T in my girlfriends Micra.. Not because i think im special.. it just makes down changes smoother...


[Edited by James Bushell on 13 August 2004 at 12:56am]

 

[civic_legend]

Right, sorry to bring this one back up again lads and lasses, but Ive fairly recently had a drive in my mates (he is on this forum! - rob where are you? ) Clio Sport 172 in a tasty shade of black.

Was generally very impressed with all aspects of it, accelerated instantly and with (obviously) no lag, and could out handle my coupe easily. However one thing bugged me and that was the heights of the brake and accel pedals in relation to each other. I found heel and toeing almost impossible, the best I could muster was a ball of foot and outside edge and that just didnt cut it TBH, didnt feel safe or secure either...

Have I just got oversized plates or can you do anything to make the brake pedal sit a little lower (which is what it felt liked it needed to facilitate the heel n toe)?

I only take such an interest as I see the Clio as a viable next car... makes the fuel consumption of my coop seem TERRIBLE!



cheers all



Matt

 

[Fred@BTM]

yeah i use my big toe and the side of my foot



muppets that cant drive will see 30K out of a clutch on a 172 but if you know how to drive proper (ie H+T) youll see double that on the std clutch

 

[almaghrbi]

I say that heel and toe will definately give an advantage on the track and that advantage is much much noticeable in the wet. The idea is to change down without affecting the balance of the car so although you can hear the down shift you should not feel it at all.

Think about it your car is not jerky before entering the corner as it helps you to keep the balance and stay smooth. It also helps minimizing wear and tear.

The greatest benefit is felt when you brake hard and downshift (lower gear rpm around 4K-5K)

 

[jongsr4]

The best way to do this in with the Clios pedals (and most cars) is to use the outside of your right foot (Rather than your heel) for the "blipping" of the throttle, although its called "heel and Toe" i never actually use my heel

 

[almaghrbi]

Quote: Originally posted by jongsr4 on 02 December 2004

The best way to do this in with the Clios pedals (and most cars) is to use the outside of your right foot (Rather than your heel) for the "blipping" of the throttle, although its called "heel and Toe" i never actually use my heel

That is absolutly right

For the record it was called heel and toe because in the old days the gaz pedal was in the middle and the brake pedal was on the right so they were using there heel and toe. With nowaday cars you use the palm of the foor to hit the brakes and you roll it to the right to blip the throttle

 

[y0z2a]

Quote: Originally posted by Eddd on 10 August 2004
I heel toe every downshift whilst braking, either on the track or road. It just makes life a lot easier for the mechanical bits as it is a far smoother way of downshifting.


me too Eddd.

my clutch lasted 60,000 hard miles, which is testament to the mechanical aspect.

I find it also means that I am in the right rev range for the gear normally.

/y0z

 

[almaghrbi]

Quote: Originally posted by civic_legend on 02 December 2004


Right, sorry to bring this one back up again lads and lasses, but Ive fairly recently had a drive in my mates (he is on this forum! - rob where are you? ) Clio Sport 172 in a tasty shade of black.

Was generally very impressed with all aspects of it, accelerated instantly and with (obviously) no lag, and could out handle my coupe easily. However one thing bugged me and that was the heights of the brake and accel pedals in relation to each other. I found heel and toeing almost impossible, the best I could muster was a ball of foot and outside edge and that just didnt cut it TBH, didnt feel safe or secure either...

Have I just got oversized plates or can you do anything to make the brake pedal sit a little lower (which is what it felt liked it needed to facilitate the heel n toe)?

I only take such an interest as I see the Clio as a viable next car... makes the fuel consumption of my coop seem TERRIBLE!



cheers all



Matt



It is alright mate, the clutch pedal should be higher than the brake pedal which should be higher than the gaz pedal. The idea is when you brake hard, the brake pedal will be slightly higher or level with the gaz pedal so you roll your feet to blip it. It just takes time to practice and then it becomes natural and then you feel secure to use it...

Have fun

 

[almaghrbi]

Quote: Originally posted by Toypop on 12 August 2004


Quicker? The Clio (and similar small FWD cars) from my experience doesnt benefit from the smooth style that RWDs reward so much. They actually demand that you be quite abusive.

___________

I am sorry to disagree with you mate, smootheness is the key to be fast. The slower the car looks on the track is more likely to be the fast time. I am sure you all lot experienced it when you think you are slow on the track you later fine out that you actually had the best time. Heel & toe helps you to be smooth hence less weight transfer hence speed. It is not designed to not lock the wheels or anything like that ....

FWD, RWD, 4WD all will be faster and smoother if you heel and toe

 

[® Andy]

So I H&T ... and can double de-clutch too. However, in preparation for getting a V6 ... how do I trail brake?

 

[almaghrbi]

Quote: Originally posted by Andy D on 02 December 2004

So I H&T ... and can double de-clutch too. However, in preparation for getting a V6 ... how do I trail brake?

trail braking is effectively braking into the corner and increasing the intensity of braking as the car is slowing through the corner. It is difficult to do and needs lots of practice and I hope you do that of the road.

There is varying opinion as to whether this is required or not but almost always you will gain a slight advantage by doing this into slow corners only. Jakie Stewart was the master of this and this skill is usually the last acquired and mastered as it gives very small advantage but it what seperates brilliant drivers from good drivers

 

[jongsr4]

Trail braking doesnt have much use for the road IMO, I use it on the track, it is just my style of driving, and as almaghrbi has said, it is debatable how effective it is....it just depends on your style of driving IMO and yes its only really used on slow corners

 

[civic_legend]

Right, I guess I just need to wear smaller shoes for the ickle pedal box!

Cheers for the responses and debate lads

 

[Scudetto]

"Dont really see the point in doing it on a front wheel drive car other than to reduce wear on components but if you are driving hard enough to need to heel and toe you obviously dont care!

Ive never noticed any problems in an FWD on the track as the wheels dont lock due to all the weight being on them under braking. Not like a motorcycle or RWD where I have nearly come off the formal and spun the latter due to a rushed down change just before turning-in.


Also I find in most road cars the revs dont drop at all fast when you dip the clutch so unless you have a disability that results in you taking ten minutes to move the gear stick its definitely not a problem. In more high performance engines and on pretty much all four stroke motorcycles the revs will drop quick enough so that a blip before releasing the clutch is required. I would say that anyone that feels the need to do it in a Clio is simply trying to change down too early and a minor adjustment of driving style would suffice."

--------------------------------------------

Sorry that I have come to this debate late. Ive been heel and toeing for donkeys years, pretty much most of the time when braking and changing down (and always blipping when changing down without braking). A few points:

It can be done very easily in the Clio - although its not a heel i use. I use the left side of my right foot to brake, and the right side to blip. I had a hole in my floormat by 8k. After 13 years of driving, Ive yet to have any braking issues when heel and toeing. Of course, in a crash stop, Id just nail the brake pedal.

I agree with the engine/clutch wear and car stability points, and i have no idea or interest if it saves me time etc. What i do know is this - it feels right, it feels like the rhythm is correct, that gentle merging of braking and blipping and smooth down changes - sit next to a driver who doesnt heel and toe when driving and it feels like an incomplete sentence, if that makes sense; the flow feels incomplete, and staggered or awkward, like the harmony has gone. Plus, and this is an emotive thing, it makes the car feel more alive. I cant quanitify that statement, its just how it feels to me.

g


[Edited by Scudetto on 03 December 2004 at 4:04pm]

 

[Lagerlout]

lol.... I went away and learnt to heel and toe after reading this thread a few months back..... the difference (when I get it right - Im still practising!!) is unbeleivable..... My Clio, which is skittish at the best of times is so much more stable and controllable on the approach to corners when I heel and toe.

Only bummer is I have to wear wide trainers/shoes otherwise I cant get enough of the throttle with the outside of my foot, and sometimes when braking really hard the brake pedal goes below the level of the accelerator.....