HI Spec 4 Pot Conversion 285mm

fmp_ · Jul 4, 2006

sorry for lack of replys, been at the 'ring all weekend and only got back late last night.

I will have a craxk at answering questions and getting details up etc.

As for the standard brakes, they do stand up to a fair bit of punishment (mine hwere actaully SMOKING at the 'ring) , but if your a track day enthusiast, 4 pots are a must!

Fred@BTM · Jul 4, 2006

fmp_ said:
sorry for lack of replys, been at the 'ring all weekend and only got back late last night.

I will have a craxk at answering questions and getting details up etc.

As for the standard brakes, they do stand up to a fair bit of punishment (mine hwere actaully SMOKING at the 'ring) , but if your a track day enthusiast, 4 pots are a must!

incorrect!

if you're a trackday enthusiast and your heavy handed with the brakes, then yes you might need 4pots

but if you know how to drive and use the gears to slow you down aswell as the brakes then you won't (heal and toe)

Joe@ShedMotorsport · Jul 4, 2006

Incorrect! If you're a trackday enthusiast (4 trackdays plus a year?) and want to set the fastest time possible then 4-pots are a must. Mat was using a good braking technique and good use of engine braking round the ring, but there is a limit to the standard brakes. They stood up ok to one lap of the ring, but had to come in after each lap for a cool down. There was so much heat being generated that the valve caps melted just from the radiant heat. The standard brakes start to become a limiting factor when you're using track spec rubber such as AO48R's, if your a serious trackday goer then 4-pots are to be considered.

MarkM · Jul 4, 2006

So what are the advantages of 4 pots?

Is it just heat dissipation or are they more powerful, lighter weight and better pedal feel?

PYE21 · Jul 4, 2006

Joe@ShedMotorsport said:
Incorrect! If you're a trackday enthusiast (4 trackdays plus a year?) and want to set the fastest time possible then 4-pots are a must. Mat was using a good braking technique and good use of engine braking round the ring, but there is a limit to the standard brakes. They stood up ok to one lap of the ring, but had to come in after each lap for a cool down. There was so much heat being generated that the valve caps melted just from the radiant heat. The standard brakes start to become a limiting factor when you're using track spec rubber such as AO48R's, if your a serious trackday goer then 4-pots are to be considered.

I totally agree, i did 200miles around Oulton park in Feb with DS2500, goodridge etc and the brakes just about lasted, then at the ring in May they were just about ok on steady laps but on fast laps (i only do these at certain times of the day at the ring when traffic is at its lowest) they fell to pieces and i know-longer have any confidence in them on the track. The current setup is fine for road use but for track more is needed!

Ian

Joe@ShedMotorsport · Jul 4, 2006

Less effort is required by the driver for the same pressure at the pad due to the force multiplication of not only the increased number of pistons but also due to the increased amount of leverage due to the arger diameter disc. There would also be weight savings (lightweight aluminium alloy caliper and 2-piece discs with aluminium bells) which would be benficial to the unsprung weight thus improving handling and ride. There would also be better heat disipation due to the larger surface area of the disc (also benefits braking power) and due to aluminium being a better conductor than cast iron. The calipers are also a lot more rigid resulting in better pedal feel and more power due to less flexing of the caliper. Easier pad changing is another benefit. There are probably numerous others aswell. If i think of any more i will post them up.

MarkM · Jul 4, 2006

Joe@ShedMotorsport said:
Less effort is required by the driver for the same pressure at the pad due to the force multiplication of not only the increased number of pistons but also due to the increased amount of leverage due to the arger diameter disc. There would also be weight savings (lightweight aluminium alloy caliper and 2-piece discs with aluminium bells) which would be benficial to the unsprung weight thus improving handling and ride. There would also be better heat disipation due to the larger surface area of the disc (also benefits braking power) and due to aluminium being a better conductor than cast iron. The calipers are also a lot more rigid resulting in better pedal feel and more power due to less flexing of the caliper. Easier pad changing is another benefit. There are probably numerous others aswell. If i think of any more i will post them up.

The benefits over the standard setup would appear to be beneficial for road use aswell. You may not cook your brakes on the road but more power and pedal feel cant be a bad thing.

Any idea on the weight saving with your kit over the standard setup?

Joe@ShedMotorsport · Jul 4, 2006

Not yet i'm afraid, manufacture of the first kit should start this week as we've just signed off the drawings. I'll work it all out when we recieve the kit.

PYE21 · Jul 4, 2006

^^ Any idea how long before they are avalible?

Fred@BTM · Jul 4, 2006

Joe i HAVE to disagree with you on this

4pots on a 172/182 aren't needed

cup racers??? - no
cup racers in the 24hr ring race??? - no
yozzasport 1.2??? - no (fastest N/A track clio out there!)

the stock calipers are more than powerful enough, 100-0 in 4sec in std setup, with our PF kit you could do that all day long no fade at all

the only reason to go to 4pots is people "think" they need them

in fairness we're doing a kit also, and our track car will probably have them in the future, but it doesn't NEED them

i'll await Ben"i'm a racing driver"R and Cliobuyer "i'm a racing driver with a cool hair doo" and Evo"hi my name is Steve"gone

MarkM · Jul 4, 2006

FredYozzasport said:
Joe i HAVE to disagree with you on this

4pots on a 172/182 aren't needed

cup racers??? - no
cup racers in the 24hr ring race??? - no
yozzasport 1.2??? - no (fastest N/A track clio out there!)

the stock calipers are more than powerful enough, 100-0 in 4sec in std setup, with our PF kit you could do that all day long no fade at all

the only reason to go to 4pots is people "think" they need them

in fairness we're doing a kit also, and our track car will probably have them in the future, but it doesn't NEED them

i'll await Ben"i'm a racing driver"R and Cliobuyer "i'm a racing driver with a cool hair doo" and Evo"hi my name is Steve"gone

Are they any better then a standard setup though!??

Yozzasport 1.2 doesnt NEED 240bhp

We dont NEED to drive round in 182s when a 1.2 can get us from A to B

I didnt NEED to eat that 4th doughnut at lunchtime

I dont NEED four pots but if they are better then the standard setup I may WANT some

Englebert · Jul 4, 2006

Lol!

It's all about usage at the end of the day, i'm suprised you say the Clios don't have 4 pots for a 24 hour racing though.

A stock caliper is always going to be compromised, it was never intended for track use. Especially 24 hours worth of being stood on!

I can see what you're saying Fred, maybe the stock caliper can cope but even so, a decent 4 pot will be better!

And again you're shooting yourself in the foot saying people should not buy your gear! Enough of this honest advice b****cks

Joe@ShedMotorsport · Jul 4, 2006

Fred I seem to remember you saying that all the cars you have had have had 4-pots? Yes the std setup is fine, but thats it, they are by no means the best. We're not saying people have to buy them, we're just giving people the option. I'm sure the cup racers would use 4-pots given the choice but they aren't in an effort to keep costs to a minimum. The same applies to the 24hr racers, they'd change them too but they can't due to the class they compete in.

Fred@BTM · Jul 4, 2006

oh yeah i agree, its cool to have that as an option for people, hence why we're doing it, but ours ain't gonna be cheap! we're going mad on ours :evil:

yes both my cars do have 4 pots, but i also have large amounts of disposable income

LMAO!!

Fred@BTM · Jul 4, 2006

Joe@ShedMotorsport said:
Fred I seem to remember you saying that all the cars you have had have had 4-pots? Yes the std setup is fine, but thats it, they are by no means the best. We're not saying people have to buy them, we're just giving people the option. I'm sure the cup racers would use 4-pots given the choice but they aren't in an effort to keep costs to a minimum. The same applies to the 24hr racers, they'd change them too but they can't due to the class they compete in.

re the 24hours at the ring - they can do what they want to the brakes, they just don't bother on the cup racers, PF pads ARE that good!

i wasn't critising you doing a kit for it, quite the opposite infact, what i was trying to say is as above they don't NEED them

70-80% of the people that own 172/182's will never push the car to the point where the wheels are gonna fall off

major contrdiction coming up, i suppose its MUCH cheaper to make the car stop better than it is to make the car go better

i'll shut up!

edde · Jul 4, 2006

FredYozzasport said:
4pots on a 172/182 aren't needed

cup racers??? - no
cup racers in the 24hr ring race??? - no
yozzasport 1.2??? - no (fastest N/A track clio out there!)

the stock calipers are more than powerful enough, 100-0 in 4sec in std setup, with our PF kit you could do that all day long no fade at all

the only reason to go to 4pots is people "think" they need them

in fairness we're doing a kit also, and our track car will probably have them in the future, but it doesn't NEED them.

PF97 don't last that long and at there price well I worked out that assuming you did something like 30k on 4 pots (and drive hard) there'd be the same sort of price as pads are cheaper and last longer.
Also equivalent 4 pots pads don't hammer the wheels and paint as much as they don't need to be as agressive I'm sure my old ones had about similar hardness as DS2500s but were better than DS300/PF97 stopping wise.
Cup racer drivers might need them they don't have an option though.
Plus with 4 pots you shouldn't need air dusts etc.

Maybe you should ask Jeremy Townsend if your 197 can have the old calipers on I'm sure he'd ablige.

fmp_ · Jul 4, 2006

so, let me get this correct.......

Yozzasport say:

You dont need 4 pots, just the correct driving technique (whats that, not going fast than 20 mph?)

and...

Despite not needing said 4 pots, they are making the Ultimate brake kit (seems a bit pointless if they say they are not needed)

seems a bit strange??? not trying to start an argument 'n all.

But anyways, details of kit coming in next day or two, prototypes are on order, those who want, get in touch!

BenR · Jul 4, 2006

4 pots are 'better' in the grand scheme of things, how can they not be.

However, i've never needed 4 pots retrofitted, and more importantly, i have yet to feel a 4pot kit that feels right, so until then, i wont be wasting my cash on them.

Fred@BTM · Jul 4, 2006

edde said:
PF97 don't last that long and at there price well I worked out that assuming you did something like 30k on 4 pots (and drive hard) there'd be the same sort of price as pads are cheaper and last longer.
Also equivalent 4 pots pads don't hammer the wheels and paint as much as they don't need to be as agressive I'm sure my old ones had about similar hardness as DS2500s but were better than DS300/PF97 stopping wise.
Cup racer drivers might need them they don't have an option though.
Plus with 4 pots you shouldn't need air dusts etc.

Maybe you should ask Jeremy Townsend if your 197 can have the old calipers on I'm sure he'd ablige.

eh? edde lay off the crack! PF97's last for ages

Joe, what i'm getting at is if you're a pro driver you don't need 4 pots, if you know how to brake and use the gears by heal and toe then you don't need whopping brakes

but people want them as the market dictates "ooh 4pots are better" when they're not always needed

i agree if you do loads of trackdays and you don't heal and toe you will destroy the brakes, but take the same driver in the same car and give him 4pots and he'll probably be ok

this arguement can bang on for ages, and i hate typing

if you want to argue this on track i'm more than willing to take you out in our track car and prove my point (note i won't be driving as you may die! LOL)

Joe@ShedMotorsport · Jul 4, 2006

I know this can go on and on, but how many people out there are 'pro' drivers? Yes a decent driver can drive around the innefficienciess of poor brakes by using a good cornering technique, but if a driver is good enough the brakes will start to become a hindrance.

The use of heel & toe downshifting can't be recommended enough as it maintains the balance of the car allowing the car to be turned in better and works the tyres to their optimimum but IMO it by no means reduces the amount of work required by the brakes. By heel & toeing you are mathing the engine speed with road speed and thus reducing the engines braking effect, therefore requiring more effort from the brakes.

The std brakes are great as far as standard brakes go but there will be people out there, even those with a good driving technique, who will be able push the brakes to their limit.

With regards to what BenR has said hopefully our kit will feel right as the caliper has been matched to the std master cylinder to try and make them feel as natural as possible.

BenR · Jul 4, 2006

good luck joe, a 4 pot kit that actually works and feels good is needed.

Everybody says they match the piston area, but most people do it very broadly using total dia area. spongy.......

Fred@BTM · Jul 4, 2006

Joe@ShedMotorsport said:
The use of heel & toe downshifting can't be recommended enough as it maintains the balance of the car allowing the car to be turned in better and works the tyres to their optimimum but IMO it by no means reduces the amount of work required by the brakes. By heel & toeing you are mathing the engine speed with road speed and thus reducing the engines braking effect, therefore requiring more effort from the brakes

the point of heal toe is yes to keep the car balanced under braking, but also using the gears and engine to slow yourself down reduces the effort required by the brakes IMO

but then we do get through a few gearboxes per season LOL!!!

BenR · Jul 4, 2006

thats because you YS boys shift at warp speed for that nano second off the lap time

Fred@BTM · Jul 4, 2006

"doesn't matter if you win by an inch or a mile, winning's winning"

Joe@ShedMotorsport · Jul 4, 2006

But to finish first, first you have to finish.

BenR · Jul 4, 2006

will you two trackday heros shutup about 'winning'.........lol

Fred@BTM · Jul 4, 2006

LMAO!!! ever seen the film "trackday warriors?" its awesome

"the caterham 7, a real trackday warrior"

"the Su BAR ooooooh sti version 432 wrx, a real track day warrior"

they say it about every car thats on the film, hilarious

SteveC047 · Jul 5, 2006

HUM!!!!!! Know I am well and truley confussed.

I think i may just go down the route of switching pads, and discs to start of with.

It is very intresting what has been said, and its great to read the the arguments for and against 4 pots.

FRED do you fancy giving me some driving lesson round the track LOL

fmp_ · Jul 5, 2006

just on a side note, hot brakes, here are mine after a decent lap of the nurburgring....

http://s76.photobucket.com/albums/j...urrent=MOV01738.flv&refPage=&imgAnch=imgAnch1

hence why 4 pots are a must for me, and why we are developing a kit.

edde · Jul 5, 2006

Fred I've a problem. My car doesn't do engine braking so am I excepted and should get 4 pots?

fmp_ · Jul 5, 2006

Fred@BTM · Jul 5, 2006

SteveC047 said:
HUM!!!!!! Know I am well and truley confussed.

I think i may just go down the route of switching pads, and discs to start of with.

It is very intresting what has been said, and its great to read the the arguments for and against 4 pots.

FRED do you fancy giving me some driving lesson round the track LOL

brake lines and fluid are a MUST mate

fmp - ever heard of "cool down"

fmp_ · Jul 5, 2006

i guess you have never been to the nurburgring then fred?

as there really isnt any room to cool down, once you have done your lap, its straight back into the pits!

BenR · Jul 5, 2006

you guys and your brakes..........i just take them off.

theduck · Jul 5, 2006

fmp_ said:
just on a side note, hot brakes, here are mine after a decent lap of the nurburgring....

http://s76.photobucket.com/albums/j20/prets2006/?action=view&current=MOV01738.flv&refPage=&imgAnch=imgAnch1

hence why 4 pots are a must for me, and why we are developing a kit.

So because you made your brakes smoke on the ring you need 4pots?

Well guess that means my 1.6 needs 4 pots then because I get mine smoking on my local b roads!

Fred@BTM · Jul 5, 2006

fmp_ said:
i guess you have never been to the nurburgring then fred?

as there really isnt any room to cool down, once you have done your lap, its straight back into the pits!

yeah been twice, i back off when i get to the second "mini karousel"

edde · Jul 5, 2006

FredYozzasport said:
yeah been twice, i back off when i get to the second "mini karousel"

If you had 4 pots you woulnd't need to back off then would you.
You should get a dci or 4 pots I didn't back off time I was past the bridge in my cars.
Only twice though get back there your got a car with cruise only a few hours drive.

Fred@BTM · Jul 5, 2006

yeah "if" i had 4 pots.......................................

f**king buy a proper car edde

edde · Jul 5, 2006

FredYozzasport said:
yeah "if" i had 4 pots.......................................

f**king buy a proper car edde

I like standard slow reliable. Also I get the full value of my warently as Renault have no excuse not to fix my car.
I had a proper car sold it as being a true cheap northerner it was costing to much to run.

fmp_ · Jul 5, 2006

theduckeatspork - wow wee! thats impressive! Join the we need 4 pots club!

HI Spec 4 Pot Conversion 285mm

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