hmm, get rid of my ITB's?

[TheJesus]

Seriously thinking of getting rid of the ITB's and going for some form of boostage for serious power. I can get a reliable 400bhp and 350lbs/ft by having a low comp boosted engine and wouldn't cost me anything extra from the sale of the bodies. Thing is, costs increase as my suspension will need uprating with something special as will the brakes.

I want to track the car and have it for annoying Porshce and BMW drivers at the weekends, will it be too much on track? People always say anything over 200bhp and you cant put the power down, but in the dry I can get all 240 horsies onto the black stuff with ease... how bad can it be?

 

[Ex-User (19928)]

Why not is what I say.

If you only use half the throttle and put down 200bhp in 1st and 2nd, you've got more power for higher speed so it doesn't matter what people say. More power is more speed.

 

[A18XHO]

Only reason you put all you power down is becuase your car dont have much torque. If you turbo'd it, it would let go in 3rd/4th with all that torque when the boost kicks in

 

[TheJesus]

Why not is what I say.

If you only use half the throttle and put down 200bhp in 1st and 2nd, you've got more power for higher speed so it doesn't matter what people say. More power is more speed.

not sure it quite works like that (NA vs Boosted in torque terms) but I see where you're coming from... would it be that much more difficult to drive quickly? I just fancy something different maybe, although I will undoubtedly miss the noise the most.

PS - it has "okay" torque, last RR was 193lbs (163.6 ATW), but yeah, nothing on a boosted car

 

[philthy]

go supercharged, speak to andy about it.
you may even be able to test drive one soon?

Id buy your ITB setup off you

 

[FlameR]

wont that amount of torque bend/twist a clio chassis? I take it your clutch and gear box aren't standard?

 

[TheJesus]

hmmm... really in 2 minds... 280bhp NA track car, or 400+bhp boosted monster. If it wasn't for the fact I could sell the ITB's so easily and buy turbo's/chargers and intercooler and not really pay much extra out it wouldn't be a problem, as I'd stick with ITB's, but it's the fact I'm getting more work done anyway and instead of having a HC engine I can do a LC engine and boost it for 50-75% more power.

I'm guessing 400+bhp wont be good on track without spending money on LSD's etc and even then will be a handful? :S

 

[TheJesus]

wont that amount of torque bend/twist a clio chassis? I take it your clutch and gear box aren't standard?

wouldn't have thought so tbh, there have been 400-500bhp Mk2's already, just not using a Renault engine... box however is a problem with 50bhp on Renaults, let alone 400+! lol

 

[AliasOmega]

Thing is, costs increase as my suspension will need uprating with something special as will the brakes.

When the bugatti veyron was in work, i was checking the brakes out, it has 2 callipers fitted to the car on the front brakes.

On the clio, all you would have to go is fit one to the bottom of the disk, and then have a similar design.

 

[FlameR]

wont that amount of torque bend/twist a clio chassis? I take it your clutch and gear box aren't standard?

wouldn't have thought so tbh, there have been 400-500bhp Mk2's already, just not using a Renault engine... box however is a problem with 50bhp on Renaults, let alone 400+! lol

yeah the gear box is fairly (very) shoite. I suppose if you can get the turbo set up to no extra cost then go for it. It's just the likelihood of more mechanical problems and replacement of the clutch and tyres every 500 miles lol

 

[TheJesus]

yeah, more I think about it the more I think stick to what I know. ITB's are reliable as a daily runner, that I know as I've done 20k in mine without a problem and use it to get to work and see the missus and mates etc... petrol consumption isn't an issue though, as it's about to become a weekend/track toy.

 

[stan*]

IMO

anything over 250-260LB.Ft of torque in a front wheel drive car is "pointless". Im basing this on a few FWD cars Ive driven over the years with various turbo/NA specs, most recently of whcih a Punto I converted, using a 2.0 turbo 16v Coupe engine, which made 220bhp and 250lb.ft (standard engine)....fair do's different marque, but same principals/figures/weights etc. This car is quick.....VERY quick. ANY more torque and there would be serious traction and handling problems, which in my book begs the question "whats the point" (forum/pub bragging aside). This is confirmed by 1/4 mile times of FWD cars running 350-400bhp NOT necessarily being any quicker. Therefore the extra paper-figures are wasted really.

You want it to be usable...usable=quick...ESPECIALLY on track.

 

[TheJesus]

yeah good points Stan... I've just been tempted by boostage, so toying with the idea as it would be a supercar slayer no doubt, but handling, drivability and noise all seem to suffer from all accounts.

I'll probably stick to ITB's for the time being and put some more power through it this way, then if I get bored it's probably best building another engine to do all that. More expensive, but best of both worlds I guess as I'd have one very quick but drivable car and another not so drivable supercar killer lol

 

[stan*]

aye...dont get me wrong, boost is fun as f**k, but personally I love screaming trumpets!

I really should finnish my Williams :evil: lol

 

[tomhunt85]

Would it not be better to sell the whole engine with the setup or is that what you're talking about?

 

[Christopher]

nooo!

n/a FTW!

 

[Fred@BTM]

I'd stick to drinking Brandy and Lemonade mate

 

[TheJesus]

Would it not be better to sell the whole engine with the setup or is that what you're talking about?

not the whole engine, no point as the engine itself is standard, it's just loosened up nicely now it's almost on 80k too. I'd only be getting rid of the Jenvey kit to fund a turbo/supercharger and intercooler if I go down that route. My engine is due a rebuild anyway, it's feeling quicker... noticably, so that tells me it's days are numbered lol.

I'd stick to drinking Brandy and Lemonade mate

haha fucker! you and Yoz coming up for the Manchester Xmas bash?

 

[Fred@BTM]

may do, depends on money (i'm still skint after spa!)

 

[TheJesus]

may do, depends on money (i'm still skint after spa!)

well if not I'll be having a moving house bash anyway... well, several probably! Get your arses along you pair of queens

 

[Ex-User (19928)]

would it be that much more difficult to drive quickly?

Not in the position to comment having never driven a Clio with 250 or 400bhp.

Haven't you posted in the past that you don't go on a track to post the best times, or something along those lines.

Without driving either I would've thought 240bhp in a 1 tonne, FWD car would be pushing the limits on tighter corners.

Can you not fit wider tyres on the Clio without it rubbing ?? Even 225s would make a big difference.

 

[TheJesus]

Yeah, I just go on track for a blast and a bit of a laugh, I certainly dont take it seriously or even get competative, I just like having a good blast and not having to worry about other road users as much (like minded people and all that!).

As it is now it's fine tbh, it doesn't break traction in the dry in anything but first (and only sometimes) and fast sifts to 2nd it will squeel a bit, but generally grip is tremendous... I know 240 aint 400, but I wonder how bad it actually is, as Matt never had probs with the TT Clio in that respect.

I could fit 205's I think, I'm only on 7" wide stock alloys, but I am running 2.3 degrees of neg camber, so it corners flat roads like it's on rails!

 

[Dan@SJM]

Well im struggling for traction in my mk1 with the 172 lump in it,I mean 1st isnt really useable, goes 10mph then to the limiter from wheelspin. so if you want a fast track car IMO loose weight from the car. my mk1 must be down around the 820/830kg mark now. and with a full stainless exhaust, decat, ported plenham, and a group N ecu its about 185 possibly 190(it was a very fast engine anyway) making power to weight : 225-230bhp/tonne. Its quite fun!

 

[Laura]

jon wait untill youve seen it work, you say reliable 400bhp, no ones ever done it it could turn out to be a nightmare I really don’t want to see your car causing you agro, plus PLEASE wait till you have got your house sorted,

 

[TheJesus]

It will work fine hun, it's going to GDI, not the cowboys over the road

Dan - your power to weight is probably similar to mine, but how the hell have you stripped that much weight!? I'm thinking I want to keep the dash, front door cards and carpet etc and run buckets and strip the back out and any sound deadening I can get away with... you got a guide as to what I can lose?

 

[Dan@SJM]

bare in mind mine was a valver. literally all ive got left is front buckets and dash. the 172 lump is about 20-30kgs lighter than the valver engine as she weighed in at 850 before...

 

[ben_p]

turbo or charger?

 

[TheJesus]

turbo or charger?

either, but probably a charger as turbo lag is just pants. charger would mean ditching the bodies though as apparently according to several experts you cant run both...

any updates on your engine yet dude? pics!

 

[ditz]

turbo or charger?

either, but probably a charger as turbo lag is just pants. charger would mean ditching the bodies though as apparently according to several experts you cant run both...

any updates on your engine yet dude? pics!

you cant run twin/multiple bodies with a supercharged setup as the bodies mount after the charger ie

throttle bodie-supercharger-head

whereas a turbo set up goes
turbo-throttle bodie/s-head

but you can only run a throttle bodie or multiple if you can make up a sealed plenum chamber to bolt to the front of them, and your throttle bodies have to be sealed ie capable of being blown through.

 

[ben_p]

either, but probably a charger as turbo lag is just pants. charger would mean ditching the bodies though as apparently according to several experts you cant run both...

any updates on your engine yet dude? pics!

you cant run twin/multiple bodies with a supercharged setup as the bodies mount after the charger ie

throttle bodie-supercharger-head

whereas a turbo set up goes
turbo-throttle bodie/s-head

but you can only run a throttle bodie or multiple if you can make up a sealed plenum chamber to bolt to the front of them, and your throttle bodies have to be sealed ie capable of being blown through.

im glad you corrected yourself at the the end there. as my engine is

Steel crank
Full rebiuld
forged rods
low comp pistons
headwork and valve work
DTH throttle boddies
rotrex 30-94 supercharger
large injectors
water injection kit (fully mappable)
WET 75hp N20 kit (progressive controller)
CAT cams
custom plenham
custom inlet manifold
standalone management

 

[f0xy]

cant wait to see this^^ what bhp you expecting ben?

 

[ben_p]

could run 400. but it will be running a usable 300

 

[Peperami]

hmmm... really in 2 minds... 280bhp NA track car, or 400+bhp boosted monster. If it wasn't for the fact I could sell the ITB's so easily and buy turbo's/chargers and intercooler and not really pay much extra out it wouldn't be a problem, as I'd stick with ITB's, but it's the fact I'm getting more work done anyway and instead of having a HC engine I can do a LC engine and boost it for 50-75% more power.

I'm guessing 400+bhp wont be good on track without spending money on LSD's etc and even then will be a handful? :S

For track isnt it more a question of whats the power delivery like, which you'd need for exiting corners? This is where the speed would be.

Would you get much lag on a 400bhp clio? Guessing you're talking about 1.8t?

Edit - just read rest of the thread, you've decided on s'charger's.

 

[FlameR]

is it purely going to be a track car? I personally think it will turn into a money pit

 

[ben_p]

how much can you get for the ITBs? there only £1300 from jenvy for 400hp ypu would need to spend

£800 on some half decent low comp pistons
£500 forged rods
£1300 on a charger
£250 intercooler
£100 pipework
£500 clutch
£300 injectors
£90 Fuel pump
£300 mouting bracket with adjustment
£500 custom rad
£2000 steel crank
£130 oil cooler

to make 400hp i think you would need water injection and some good flow work and a s**t load of boost

water/ethonol injection £400
Flow / valve work £1000


then GDi must want something to biuld the whole engine and fully map it?

£2000?

that rolls in at £10170

 

[ben_p]

im spending more than that too LOL! i feel sick

 

[ben_p]

on top then you need to sort the box (you will smash the stock one to bits)..

mine has cost 3k
+£770 for the gripper diff
+£280 for the driveshafts

brakes = £600 for some decent 4 pots etc

ive just hit the 23k mark, plus the car and trust me ... its not fun LOL

 

[ditz]

you cant run twin/multiple bodies with a supercharged setup as the bodies mount after the charger ie

throttle bodie-supercharger-head

whereas a turbo set up goes
turbo-throttle bodie/s-head

but you can only run a throttle bodie or multiple if you can make up a sealed plenum chamber to bolt to the front of them, and your throttle bodies have to be sealed ie capable of being blown through.

im glad you corrected yourself at the the end there. as my engine is

Steel crank
Full rebiuld
forged rods
low comp pistons
headwork and valve work
DTH throttle boddies
rotrex 30-94 supercharger
large injectors
water injection kit (fully mappable)
WET 75hp N20 kit (progressive controller)
CAT cams
custom plenham
custom inlet manifold
standalone management

is yours a centrefugal charger then? as its not really commonly set up in that way you normally have the supercharger between the head and the throttle bodie its only really these centrefugal setups you see plumbed in the same way as a turbo

 

[TheJesus]

how much can you get for the ITBs? there only £1300 from jenvy for 400hp ypu would need to spend

£800 on some half decent low comp pistons
£500 forged rods
£1300 on a charger
£250 intercooler
£100 pipework
£500 clutch
£300 injectors
£90 Fuel pump
£300 mouting bracket with adjustment
£500 custom rad
£2000 steel crank
£130 oil cooler

to make 400hp i think you would need water injection and some good flow work and a s**t load of boost

water/ethonol injection £400
Flow / valve work £1000


then GDi must want something to biuld the whole engine and fully map it?

£2000?

that rolls in at £10170

Not sure, reckon about £800-1000 which would cover the cost of the charger, intercooler and pipework... not at your estimates though! where did you get those prices from!?!? :S £10k is just criminal

your paying a lot out on this Clio... fair play, but you could buy a Mosler V12 by the time you have finished... and they are guaranteed to work.

Think I'll be sticking to NA though, like Peperami says, it's usable power you want on a track... well, full stop really. 400bhp will only be good for straight(ish) lines lol

 

[Fred@BTM]

matts car didn't go in a straight line!

you keep saying Mosler V12, i'm 99.9% sure they're only available in V8 or V8 supercharged