Hybrid 172/200 engine

[Martin_172]

I miss the smooth high reving F4R in my 200 and fancy a project, I was looking at turbo charging but yet to find someone who has a reliable one from reading about, I know fitting the 200 engine to the 172 isn't an easy task due to different gearboxes but what about building a hybrid?

would I be able to run the VVT setup on the 200 engine on the standard management?

do the 2 engines share the same bottom end (apart from the gearbox mounting face) and crank? so its as easy as fitting the rods, pistons and head to the 172 bottom end?

 

[Nick172Cup]

Just fit an RS2 manifold with the new timing changes that Mike at MWM has done. Smooth power delivery, 200bhp or there abouts, and probably a 5th of the cost.

 

[Luke.]

I was going to do this aswell, think it would be possible with a bit of work, 172 block and 200 head, inlet manifold, cams etc.. You would probably need standalone ECU but not 100% on that.. Think it would be pretty decent though..

 

[NorthloopCup]

I miss the smooth high reving F4R in my 200 and fancy a project, I was looking at turbo charging but yet to find someone who has a reliable one from reading about, I know fitting the 200 engine to the 172 isn't an easy task due to different gearboxes but what about building a hybrid?

would I be able to run the VVT setup on the 200 engine on the standard management?

do the 2 engines share the same bottom end (apart from the gearbox mounting face) and crank? so its as easy as fitting the rods, pistons and head to the 172 bottom end?

Blocks are not the same as a 200 has the water pump driven by the cambelt. You can put the pistons, rods and crank in from a 200 into a 1*2 block though but you need the cylinder head off one as well. Standard management will only run the dephaser the same way as it does on a 1*2 (constantly variable on the 197/200) but an aftermarket ecu would be able to run the 197/200 setup though I'm sure. It's easily done but tbh as nick has said, just stick an rs2 and 197 cams in your engine. You'll get the same performance, if not better from that setup.
The conversion route is only worth it if you drop lucky on the parts really. That's what I did as I'm doing something similar along the lines of what your asking about.

 

[Nick172Cup]

I was going to do this aswell, think it would be possible with a bit of work, 172 block and 200 head, inlet manifold, cams etc.. You would probably need standalone ECU but not 100% on that.. Think it would be pretty decent though..

NorthloopCups explained it much better than I have! Lol

 

[NorthloopCup]

I was going to do this aswell, think it would be possible with a bit of work, 172 block and 200 head, inlet manifold, cams etc.. You would probably need standalone ECU but not 100% on that.. Think it would be pretty decent though..

A 197/200 head needs adapting to suit a 1*2 cambelt setup. Easily done though - its literally 1x hole needs drilling and tapping. It must however be done accurately.

 

[NorthloopCup]

NorthloopCups explained it much better than I have! Lol

 

[Ph1 Tom]

So you want a 200 vvt setup on a 172.

Shouldn't be too difficult. Cams, dephaser and standalone ECU capable of continuously variable timing control.

 

[Martin_172]

Not just the vvt setup just generally the smooth high reving nature of the engine which im not sure an rs2 would give me although an awesome torque spread and same or more power

 

[Dan@SJM]

197/RS2'd setup was awesome. Had a power curve like a diagonal line.

 

[Craig.]

Owen has fitted a 197 in his 182, but he's added boost. ill put a brief spec for anybody interested.

197 engine
Megane pistons
Forged rods
Megane 225 ecu
Megane 225 clocks
vvt delete
Custom evo exhaust manifold
TD05 turbo
Megane push button start & key card
182 gearbox matched upto the 197 block. (However hes doing a 6spd vag box conversion very soon)

Anythings possible.

 

[Dan@SJM]

I take it be doesn't have air con lol.

However, I bet it sounds epic.

 

[Craig.]

Lol no air con.

It does sound very good indeed.

 

[Martin_172]

thanks for the input so far guys.

awesome conversion that turbo one

basically all I want is something that pulls and revs like the 7800rpm, smooth 200 engine, but in a mk2 shell, on standard management so it drives like it left the factory.

 

[NorthloopCup]

basically all I want is something that pulls and revs like the 7800rpm, smooth 200 engine, but in a mk2 shell, on standard management so it drives like it left the factory.

Sounds to me like you need to be on the lookout for a set of 197/200 pistons, rods, cams, head and ancillaries and the crank then. The 197 crank is roughly 1.5kg lighter than a stock 1*2 item as well in case anyone else is interested.
I dropped lucky and picked up all of the above plus a set of r3 pistons, rods and cams for £400!! Lol!

 

[Ph1 Tom]

Sounds to me like you need to be on the lookout for a set of 197/200 pistons, rods, cams, head and ancillaries and the crank then. The 197 crank is roughly 1.5kg lighter than a stock 1*2 item as well in case anyone else is interested.
I dropped lucky and picked up all of the above plus a set of r3 pistons, rods and cams for £400!! Lol!

Could have done with knowing about the crank, I'd have got one fitted whilst the engine was in bits!

 

[Martin_172]

Sounds to me like you need to be on the lookout for a set of 197/200 pistons, rods, cams, head and ancillaries and the crank then. The 197 crank is roughly 1.5kg lighter than a stock 1*2 item as well in case anyone else is interested.
I dropped lucky and picked up all of the above plus a set of r3 pistons, rods and cams for £400!! Lol!

that sounds exactly like what I want!


and I can have the standard ecu mapped to run the 197/200 cams however the dephaser will either be active or not rather than continuous as per the 197/200 is that right?

 

[Carbonraider]

So the 197 crank is the same as a 1*2 just lighter..

 

[NorthloopCup]

Could have done with knowing about the crank, I'd have got one fitted whilst the engine was in bits!

You'd be surprised at what I know about these little details Tom!

that sounds exactly like what I want!


and I can have the standard ecu mapped to run the 197/200 cams however the dephaser will either be active or not rather than continuous as per the 197/200 is that right?

Yeah pretty much mate. One of the reasons it was constantly variable was to try and improve on a bit of midrange torque and drive ability. Standard ecu will cope perfectly fine, it just needs to be mapped by someone like Paul @ Rs Tuning as he's known to be very good at mapping the standard ecu as well as aftermarket.
​

So the 197 crank is the same as a 1*2 just lighter..

Yes mate, but to look at them they look quite a bit different. The counterweights are more rounded and thinner on the 197 version.

 

[Chip-mk1]

I miss the smooth high reving F4R in my 200 and fancy a project, I was looking at turbo charging but yet to find someone who has a reliable one from reading about, I know fitting the 200 engine to the 172 isn't an easy task due to different gearboxes but what about building a hybrid?

Easy enough to do, but not a massive amount of point, like Dave mentions you would be better just fitting an RS2 to your 172 engine and getting the cams timed appropriately, far better results for smooth delivery of power and decent figures.

would I be able to run the VVT setup on the 200 engine on the standard management?

Nope, you would have to use the 172 solenoid which then means your cam timing is then wrong on the standard 200 timing marks.

 

[Ph1 Tom]

You'd be surprised at what I know about these little details Tom!

Yeah pretty much mate. One of the reasons it was constantly variable was to try and improve on a bit of midrange torque and drive ability. Standard ecu will cope perfectly fine, it just needs to be mapped by someone like Paul @ Rs Tuning as he's known to be very good at mapping the standard ecu as well as aftermarket.

Yes mate, but to look at them they look quite a bit different. The counterweights are more rounded and thinner on the 197 version.

Ahh well, the engine is going back in in the next couple of days. If I like the Clio enough and I've got money to burn in a couple of years I know what crank to get.

Really you want aftermarket management and a 197/200 dephaser to make the most of the VVT and improve torque across the whole rev range, rather than the 172/182 emissions improvement only version. Then you can get some of the catcam VVT profiles for the 197/200. The graph I saw for the 197 cams in the 172/182 lost torque but gained a bit of BHP. This is probably due to the longer duration not only of the inlet cam but quite a lot longer on the exhaust cam.

Is there still potential to lighten them further?

 

[NorthloopCup]

Nope, you would have to use the 172 solenoid which then means your cam timing is then wrong on the standard 200 timing marks.

I'm going to have to disagree there chip. I've seen both a 197/200 solenoid and a 1*2 one, and they are nigh on identical except the wiring plug is different and a few other small things. Both engines use the same horseshoe cam locking device so I can't see how the timing will be wrong? Are you referring to 197/200 cams timed up to standard 1*2 timing if fitted to a standard 1*2?
The solenoid for a 197/200 is effectively just an on off switch that's given a pwm signal to vary how far it opens and how much the cam is advanced or retarded.

 

[NorthloopCup]

Is there still potential to lighten them further?

I can't see why not personally, but there's only so far I'd be happy to go with a standard crank before you weaken it, and the only way you know you've gone to far is when it's to late! Lol

 

[Chip-mk1]

I'm going to have to disagree there chip. I've seen both a 197/200 solenoid and a 1*2 one, and they are nigh on identical except the wiring plug is different and a few other small things. Both engines use the same horseshoe cam locking device so I can't see how the timing will be wrong? Are you referring to 197/200 cams timed up to standard 1*2 timing if fitted to a standard 1*2?
The solenoid for a 197/200 is effectively just an on off switch that's given a pwm signal to vary how far it opens and how much the cam is advanced or retarded.

The 197/200 solenoid can move by a varying amount, where as on a 172/182 it cannot, the management has not got a cam timing reference to work from so will never be able to do what the 197/200 do with altering the cam timing to different points.

I worded my reply wrongly though (apologies quite busy today) in that I mean you will need to use the solenoid (so it plugs into the loom) and dephasor (as the 200 one will swing too far if just used as an on/off switch) from the 172 on the 200 engine.
And the timing will be wrong because when only using the 172 dephasor it doesnt advance enough so you need to advance the cam instead (so deliberately not time it on the standard marks, like MWM do with the 197 cammed RS2 cars)

Although given enough mapping time you could maybe find a switchover point that allowed you to use the 200 dephasor on the 172, but i dont know for certain that will work, but I know using the 172 stuff will.
Of course the problem is that the one thing the OP really wants is the smoothness that comes from the better cam timing control on the 200 and he will NOT get that on 172 management whatever he does!

So back to Dave's original reply, just fit an RS2! lol

 

[NorthloopCup]

The 197/200 solenoid can move by a varying amount, where as on a 172/182 it cannot, the management has not got a cam timing reference to work from so will never be able to do what the 197/200 do with altering the cam timing to different points.

I worded my reply wrongly though (apologies quite busy today) in that I mean you will need to use the solenoid (so it plugs into the loom) and dephasor (as the 200 one will swing too far if just used as an on/off switch) from the 172 on the 200 engine.
And the timing will be wrong because when only using the 172 dephasor it doesnt advance enough so you need to advance the cam instead (so deliberately not time it on the standard marks, like MWM do with the 197 cammed RS2 cars)

Although given enough mapping time you could maybe find a switchover point that allowed you to use the 200 dephasor on the 172, but i dont know for certain that will work, but I know using the 172 stuff will.
Of course the problem is that the one thing the OP really wants is the smoothness that comes from the better cam timing control on the 200 and he will NOT get that on 172 management whatever he does!

So back to Dave's original reply, just fit an RS2! lol

Yeah that makes more sense! Lol!

 

[Martin_172]

Of course the problem is that the one thing the OP really wants is the smoothness that comes from the better cam timing control on the 200 and he will NOT get that on 172 management whatever he does!

So back to Dave's original reply, just fit an RS2! lol

sorry ive probably not worded it properly, its not the smooth power curve im looking for from the 200 engine, its just physically how nice the engine revs, very smooth and balanced feeling compaired to a 172/182 lump, which i assume comes from a better crank on the 200?

when looking at standalone management is there ANY solution that causes zero dashboard lights to be on?