Keeping it strictly N/A

[M19TNR]

So I'm entering the CSCC Tin Tops next season, and I'm going to race prep the car while this season is going on

Because of this....no turbo'ing

So I have several questions, all of which a search helped in no way...

First and foremost, in your personal opinions what will a N/A 182 max out at? It's bhp limit?

Is it best to use a standard ECU or standalone? (is a stand alone aloud in CSCC TT's?)

What am I looking at mod wise to reach the top power? Cams, new management, exhaust, pistons? rods? Etc?

Is the figure of 800kg achievable?


Now in my head I want 220bhp, weighing 800kg, giving around 275bhp per tonne! Is this achievable in this slightest? (all from educated guess work)

That would give more power than my mapped Corsa SRi 1.6T, which is at 250bhp weighing in at 1085kg! So I think it would be highly competitive!

Please let me know if I've considerably over-estimated, or I've got it around right.

Also if someone could add some pricing to my ideas that would be spot on!

Thanks guys!

 

[mr.pink87]

How much do you want to spend? 220bhp will cost you around 5-6k: ITBs, standalone management, fully forged, cams, headwork etc. Weightwise 800kg might be achievable when stripped completely and using polycarb windows, but keep in mind that a proper cage will add about 50kg.

 

[M19TNR]

This is the thing with standalone....im not sure I'd be allowed it!

The regs are standard engine 'box and induction system. But that's all it says, so I'm stuck really :-/

Without standalone, is 220 feasible? And anyone who's managed it, do you have a parts list? Or a place to start looking?

I know about the cage adding weight, and obviously can't completely take the seat weight out as I'd need one bucket. But will 800kg be possible?

 

[Joah]

800kg with a cage will be very tough in my opinion, and as mentioned above, anything over 200bhp with these engines is going to cost.

Obviously all depends on your budget.

 

[Chip-mk1]

You want 220bhp out of a standard engine and induction system?

Define "standard"?

What are they allowed to do in order to check if the engine is standard? Can they take the head off?

You arent going to get anywhere near to that power with anything like a legal engine, you're going to need steel rods, high comp, massively lairy cams etc, basically you need to essentially build a 240-250bhp engine, and then run it on a highly modified (ie not just the normal port match) inlet instead of the usual ITBs to end up at 220bhp and it still look externally standard.

I reckon you'll spend 10 grand on it TBH if you want to try and make that much power with that sort of handicap.

 

[M19TNR]

I wouldn't worry about budget ATM, as there's two of us, and with obviously devoting this season to race prep, we have alot more money than if we were racing aswell between us.

When you say hard to get, how would I go about it. Poly carb windows obviously, cage, bucket, half dash. Would there be anything I've overlooked to help with significant gains?

 

[M19TNR]

When they say standard, they mean no engine transplant.

 

[Sir_Dave]

Two questions:

1. Have you raced before?
2. Are you wanting to be properly competitive in the 2.0 class?

Imho, if you are wanting to be properly competitive in your class, go 1.6 ...

 

[M19TNR]

Here are the only regs haha,
http://www.classicsportscarclub.co.uk/Forms/2012 TT REGULATIONS.pdf

Fuel injected means ITB's allowed

 

[Xanda73]

This is the thing with standalone....im not sure I'd be allowed it!

The regs are standard engine 'box and induction system. But that's all it says, so I'm stuck really :-/

Without standalone, is 220 feasible? And anyone who's managed it, do you have a parts list? Or a place to start looking?

I know about the cage adding weight, and obviously can't completely take the seat weight out as I'd need one bucket. But will 800kg be possible?

Does the rule for standard induction system not rule out ITB's? Without forced induction that would of been your main source of power increase I'd of thought, along with cams. I believe this can be done on the standard management, but somebody else who'll know a lot more than me will be better able to answer that.

 

[M19TNR]

Two questions:

1. Have you raced before?
2. Are you wanting to be properly competitive in the 2.0 class?

Imho, if you are wanting to be properly competitive in your class, go 1.6 ...

Yes I have raced before, and why go in the 1.6 class?

The integras and civics are heavy cars compared to a clio.

I'm wanting to challenge the traditions of the Hondas coming out on top.

 

[Chip-mk1]

If you are allowed forged internals and ITBS than you can easily get the 220bhp you want, in fact you could get 50bhp or so more on top of that if budget is no problem like you are saying TBH

 

[Silent_Scone]

I think you're best off speaking to the Burpspeed lads. They're pretty competitive with the teggys on circuit and their car is about 850kg dry weight. Not sure what they're doing this year but it was a standard engine running AT Power throttle bodies and just shy of 200bhp

In short and believe me I've tried you'll struggle to get sub 850 with a cage without some serious structural chopping

 

[Chip-mk1]

From what I remember of that series, you can have carbon doors, carbon wings, carbon bonnet, carbon boot, its literally only really the roof that isnt allowed to be carbon (stopped a bloke I know racing in it cause his was)

So you should easily be able to get the weight down to what you want.

I think you need to reveal a bit more about your budget though to get decent advice, as TBH I reckon you could relatively easily spend 100K building a car to really dominate that series and still be within the rules, its quite open.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Original engine, gearbox, and induction system type to be retained.

To me that says its open season on cams, compression etc, as they are only saying "gearbox type" and "engine type" and "induction type"
So no sequential, no transplants, and no swapping from N/A to FI, but I cant see any other restrictions applying.

So i'd be fitting a quaiffe gearset and diff etc if you can afford it, you just have to keep it H pattern.

 

[daveski]

I would probably start by reading through the excellent project threads on here, especially the Burpspeed one, Icemans and Toastfrenzy as they're building Clio race cars.

 

[M19TNR]

Ahh right sorry. I'll give you some more details.

Well as there's two of us, let's say £10k race prep money.
But then say there's one of us and £6k race prep money.

So if I was to build two cars with two different budgets.

Yeah chip I think your correct, aslong as you don't affect the silhouette of the car it's fine and dandy maybe the roof could have been for safety reasons, because of strength issues in a roll? I'm just guessing, but that's what I believe the ruling is.

 

[M19TNR]

I would probably start by reading through the excellent project threads on here, especially the Burpspeed one, Icemans and Toastfrenzy as they're building Clio race cars.

Brilliant, I'll have a route through for those then mate.

 

[Sir_Dave]

Yes I have raced before, and why go in the 1.6 class?

The integras and civics are heavy cars compared to a clio.

I'm wanting to challenge the traditions of the Hondas coming out on top.

Depends on budget really, but the Burpspeed guys have probably stuck 15k+ into their clio, & the Honda's still win pretty much every race. They are ex-touring car spec cars afterall, with pretty much limitless budgets.

The 1.6 class from memory has more 'normal' people in it, with the costs of building a decent spec saxo/106/206/fiesta considerably less than building a decent clio. Here are some price example for you:

1. Quaife LSD - saxo £600, clio 1200
2. Cams, ITB's & ECU - saxo £1850, clio £4000

You could build a very competitive saxo for 4-5 grand, a clio will need 3x that, and still not be capable of winning its class. Imho.

 

[M19TNR]

To me that says its open season on cams, compression etc, as they are only saying "gearbox type" and "engine type" and "induction type"
So no sequential, no transplants, and no swapping from N/A to FI, but I cant see any other restrictions applying.

So i'd be fitting a quaiffe gearset and diff etc if you can afford it, you just have to keep it H pattern.

That's exactly my thinking when I read it.

 

[M19TNR]

Depends on budget really, but the Burpspeed guys have probably stuck 15k+ into their clio, & the Honda's still win pretty much every race. They are ex-touring car spec cars afterall, with pretty much limitless budgets.

The 1.6 class from memory has more 'normal' people in it, with the costs of building a decent spec saxo/106/206/fiesta considerably less than building a decent clio. Here are some price example for you:

1. Quaife LSD - saxo £600, clio 1200
2. Cams, ITB's & ECU - saxo £1850, clio £4000

You could build a very competitive saxo for 4-5 grand, a clio will need 3x that, and still not be capable of winning its class. Imho.

Hmmmmm :-/ that's a good point. I never thought the civics would be that far ahead tbh.

How modifiable is a zetec-S mk5 fiesta?

 

[shiftspark]

Have a read of these as theres lots of info and prices for engines etc £££££££££££££££££££ lol

http://www.cliosport.net/forum/show...doesn-t-get-much-better-than-this!-*Pic-Heavy

http://www.cliosport.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?141-Tour-De-Force

 

[M19TNR]

Ahh brilliant, I'll have a route through them. Cheers

 

[Sir_Dave]

How modifiable is a zetec-S mk5 fiesta?

The Sandy Brown engined 1.6 106/fiestas run over 200bhp ... at the wheels ...

For example: http://www.106rallyeforum.com/forum2008/showthread.php?t=82158&highlight=sandy

Personally, for a 1st season id be buying something like this, then working my way up once i knew my way around:
http://www.106rallyeforum.com/forum2008/showthread.php?t=83929&highlight=race
http://www.106rallyeforum.com/forum2008/showthread.php?t=83936&highlight=race

 

[Porkie]

IMHO your budget is way to small to build a remotely competitive Clio.

Sorry!

Obviously it depends if you are doing the work yourself? or paying someone to build it?

Its too small either way! but if you aren't doing 100% labour yourself... and you want a race winning capable Clio? I think you need 5 times your budget at least


Personally... unless you really get off on and enjoy the whole building car building process (some love it!!!) then I'd look to buy a car that someone has already built and developed and raced...

 

[welshname]

MK5 Zetec S engines are prone to bottom end failure, I wouldn't bother with one.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Ahh right sorry. I'll give you some more details.

Well as there's two of us, let's say £10k race prep money.
But then say there's one of us and £6k race prep money.

So if I was to build two cars with two different budgets.

Yeah chip I think your correct, aslong as you don't affect the silhouette of the car it's fine and dandy maybe the roof could have been for safety reasons, because of strength issues in a roll? I'm just guessing, but that's what I believe the ruling is.

no the roof is just to keep out complete carbon fibre bodied spaceframes like the fella I was on about its nothing to do with safety, he had a better than WRC spec cage,

TBH for only 6K, you are basically going to be stuck with a set of bodies, management, a diff, and some half decent suspension and brakes and then thats your budget gone, you wont be able to afford to open the engine up really.

 

[Silent_Scone]

Even thats a stretch for 6k tbh

 

[M19TNR]

I was listening to you until you said £50k to prep a clip to race in the CSCC TT's!

It is a small budget, but not too small, Not by that amount!

The mech work will be done by me and a friend, but ECU work will be done by a tuner. As we don't have enough knowledge to do this.

 

[M19TNR]

Like I said, £6k is if I go on my own, and that's VERY unlikely, it's probably more £10-12k

 

[welshname]

Go for the 1.6 class if you can be more competitive in there. Saxo or 106 is the best bet, probably go for saxo personally, everything can be had so cheap with those.

 

[Chip-mk1]

If you want a clio "just because" then thats fine, but I think people's suggestions to move to a smaller engine size where you can afford to be more competitive is a good one.
But if being in a clio is more important to you (just because you like them or whatever) than being competitive just tell people you arent interested in other cars.

 

[M19TNR]

Go for the 1.6 class if you can be more competitive in there. Saxo or 106 is the best bet, probably go for saxo personally, everything can be had so cheap with those.

Yeah this is another option, just going the class down.

Might have to use my head not my heart haha, wanted a clio track car for around 6-7years haha,

 

[Chip-mk1]

Yeah this is another option, just going the class down.

Might have to use my head not my heart haha, wanted a clio track car for around 6-7years haha,

Have a clio trackday car then rather than going racing, far cheaper, lol

 

[welshname]

They are a great car for a fun track day, but without serious work they aren't competetive.

The appeal with the clio is all you need to make a fun track day car is suspension, stripped, exhaust, decent tyres. Infact you don't even need that.

 

[Chip-mk1]

They are a great car for a fun track day, but without serious work they aren't competetive.

The appeal with the clio is all you need to make a fun track day car is suspension, stripped, exhaust, decent tyres. Infact you don't even need that.

Agreed, being good out of the box doesnt always mean that making it great is easy.

 

[Porkie]

I was listening to you until you said £50k to prep a clip to race in the CSCC TT's!

It is a small budget, but not too small, Not by that amount!

The mech work will be done by me and a friend, but ECU work will be done by a tuner. As we don't have enough knowledge to do this.

You clearly didn't read what I wrote then did you...

If you are doing the mech work yourself then its all very different isn't it!

Those hours tinkering around, perfecting this little bit, making that little bracket etc etc... soon add up if you are paying £70+ an hour labour rates!

If you are doing it yourself then yes it will be ALOT cheaper

I'm only trying to help. I have a pretty high spec trackday Clio... I know what they cost. I'll show you some MASSIVE biils if you don't believe me!

To build and run a true race winning Clio for a season... from scratch and pay someone to do it?

Its £50k in my opinion. Just look at the hours and hours of fettling and prep the burpspeed boys put in!

I have a close mate who runs a company that builds and preps Lotus Elises for the Elise Trophy... I know what they charge and what motorsport prep costs.

Of course, MUCH cheaper if you do it yourself. But £10k? no chance whatsoever!

 

[M19TNR]

You clearly didn't read what I wrote then did you...

If you are doing the mech work yourself then its all very different isn't it!

Those hours tinkering around, perfecting this little bit, making that little bracket etc etc... soon add up if you are paying £70+ an hour labour rates!

If you are doing it yourself then yes it will be ALOT cheaper

I'm only trying to help. I have a pretty high spec trackday Clio... I know what they cost. I'll show you some MASSIVE biils if you don't believe me!

To build and run a true race winning Clio for a season... from scratch and pay someone to do it?

Its £50k

Of course, MUCH cheaper if you do it yourself. But £10k? no chance whatsoever!

Tbf, I didn't mean to sound as arsey as that came across. So apologies for this.

I see what you mean now, as I thought you meant £50k doing it either yourself OR someone else. Not just with someone else doing it.

I'm torn now, as I have the 182 with a view to race, but I could create a trackday car.

OR

Sell up and buy a car to race :-/

Conundrum haha

 

[Chip-mk1]

If you want to go racing, buy a race car.

Totally stupid way of doing it to start with a road car and alter it for racing when you can buy an already prepped one so much cheaper.


The other thing is, do you actually have the skills to develop the suspension setup etc?

Porkie's clio for example is on relatively basic suspension, just a set of AST's its not like its remote leda or anything, but I bet that I would struggle to get one that was on far better suspension to handle as well as Mark Fish has Porkie's working as he knows so much about setting them up.
Anyone can bolt bits on, but its picking the right bits, and knowing how to set them up once they are on that makes the difference.


As far as im aware those civics have had 50K+ spent on them, if you want to be competitive, buy one of them as the secondhand value isnt anything like that, but the build cost of a clio to outperform them will be.

 

[Dan519]

Tbf, I didn't mean to sound as arsey as that came across. So apologies for this.

I see what you mean now, as I thought you meant £50k doing it either yourself OR someone else. Not just with someone else doing it.

I'm torn now, as I have the 182 with a view to race, but I could create a trackday car.

OR

Sell up and buy a car to race :-/

Conundrum haha

Have you done many track days?