Lack of grip in damp conditions

[ripp]

Hi there,
I'm having this dilema for couple of hours now.. Went out to test drive the car after changing a faulty fuel injector, entered a roundabout (not a small and tight one) at about 20mph and the back end just went out!
Conditions were like this:
-dusk, 8 degrees celsius, tarmack was damp but very lightly (you could barely notice -almost looked like dry really)
the car:
-tracking is ok, tyres 195/50 R15 (toyo snowprox S952 front, bridgestone blizzak LM25 rear), tyre pressure as standard recommendation
-gaz gha coilovers in very good shape (no leaks, I keep them protected with socks all year long)
-1,5 negative camber front (via camber bolts), standard rear, solid k-tec top mounts
-antirollbar poly bushes, the rest standard but in good shape, no other loose suspension stuff (as far as I know)
Ok so now I am thinking "the rear tyres are couple of years old, they don't hold up very well anymore" , the fronts are new, only have them for two months (DOT 2017)
After this I wondered how an emergency brake would end up so went up to 60-70kmh, mildly stamped on the brakes and BOOM, ABS kicked in imediatelly, it just felt like I was braking on snow (ok not quite but still!) and at that point I was like WTF is this?
It's not that cold, the road is slightly damp, front tyres are new, suspension and tracking is ok, tyre pressures ok..
A friend of mine was with me in the passenger seat and he also noticed the awkward behavior.
Went imediatelly home (he was visiting me), jumped in his Audi A4 avant (2013 model) and went 15 minutes later in the exact roundabout, entered at about the same speed and NOTHING, not even a hint of ESP kicking in, the car was very stable..
Did the braking test then from 60-70kmh and it was night and day, almost felt like a dry brake test, he had to push the pedal noticeably harder for the ABS to kick in.
His car is on Viking winter tyres, 225/55 R16, also standard recommended pressure, the rest of the car is also 100% stock.
So.. a respectable hot hatch handling-wise is shamed by a diesel 1600kg audi A4?
Will do a side by side test with a friend and his 172 these days hopefully and see what's what.
Untill then, is there something I'm missing here?
Sorry for the long story but felt like all the details matter
Cheers!

 

[glenn_adam_doble]

Tread wear ?

Aggressive turn in ?

Coilover settings ?

Abit of rear steer is what makes roundabouts fun

 

[imprezaworks]

Assuming it’s not always been like this.

What have you changed, added etc recently.

 

[Rico192]

Sounds like you need some camber adjustments

 

[ripp]

@glenn_adam_doble
treadwear is spot on - fronts are new, rears although older have about 5,5 mm of tread left
turn in was rather normal, that's why it was a total surprise for us
coilovers set to softer setting - in the summer I run them harder though
I agree it's fun but not willing to trade grip for fun!
@imprezaworks
I don't kow really, it may have been always like this, I was thinking "well it's wet, so grip is poor" . This is the first time that I compared it to another car in the same conditions.
Apart from the new front tyres.. I'm running this car setup for many years. As I said, now it felt awkward and had the chance to test another car right after, and it did raised these questions

 

[imprezaworks]

Could it have just been something on the road?. Bar that is the car handling well with no drama?

 

[ripp]

I had entered in another roundabout to confirm the handling and it did the same, back end went out rather easy, and the braking test was repeated several times. So if there was smth on the road at some location it surely wasn't everywhere. And even so, we went in the Audi in the exact same locations doing the same things and the difference was as said, night and day. So if you're into a good handling car just buy a A4 LOL.....
I'm thinking:
-fatter 225/55 tyres on the audi give more grip in damp conditions somehow
-maybe the weight difference is an advantage for the audi?? although you would say that a lighter car performs better in all conditions..
-front 1,5 negative camber is poor for braking? although 1,5 is not extreme but who knows
-bad coilover setup? will test further

In the summer the car performs well on 595 rsr's, it's these conditions that it stumbled me

 

[glenn_adam_doble]

Had you been driving enthusiastically prior to this, could you have put to much heat into winter tyres ?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[imprezaworks]

Not using winter tyres because hero.

Do they simply work loads better at colder temps than it was?

Are the rear shocks ok, not leaking?

 

[ripp]

Nope, I just went for a short test drive. The car was cold and the drive lasted about 15 minutes or so of normal driving. The audi was also cold before we went to see how it performs

 

[imprezaworks]

And the temp is cold?

Outside

 

[glenn_adam_doble]

Possibly your car is a lot more stiff than the wallowy audi

 

[ripp]

Rear shocks are ok, no leaks as said.
I would use winter tyres in the winter no matter what. Especially if it snows

 

[ripp]

It may be stiffer yeah but that would affect cornering more-I think
But the braking was bad also

 

[bashracing]

Spring rates too high for your soft wallowing tyres fitted to the rear, remove the rear anti roll bar to reduce roll stiffness and try again to see if it’s improved,
500 lb + springs aren’t ideal in cold conditions with squishy sidewall road tyres

 

[glenn_adam_doble]

Try switching the tyres front to back maybe an in balance in grip, the rears being skippy causing the back to slide when cornering and they are trying to lock up under braking causing the abs to kick in

I have a Audi s4 b8.5 avant and find that even though it has suspension mods and uprated arbs I can’t compare it to the Clio, the only time the back slides out is if you Scandinavian flick it and give it full power

 

[JB21]

You can't compare a stiffened up light Clio to a fat arse wallowing A4. The issue will the tyres not being compatible with the suspension set up as above. My track car does it on road tyres in the damp.

 

[ripp]

Today was raining and colder outside: 1 degree Celsius. Stamped on the brakes and suprise: much better response.
@bashracing - i have no rear anti roll bar. Spring rates are 275lbs front and 250 rear

 

[ripp]

after further driving I came to a conclusion: on certain type of moisture covering the road the grip is very very poor (when the asphalt is very lightly moistened, a matte-brownish look to it)
Still find it interesting how this is an issue specific to my car setup and not other cars (eg the A4 above)
If raining and the road soaking wet the car has way way more grip- I find it very unusual but that's how it is
Will compare it to a friend's 172 and see