Lets sort this all out...today...once and for all..

[MonsterClio]

Right then, where do I start

MY Clio 172 IS FOR SALE ON EBAY - YES THE ONE WITH THE ORANGE WHEELS AND THE ONE THAT APPARENTLY HAS OVER 200BHP!

After being contacted through EBAY, threatened, abused and laughed at ive decided that the only option now would be to see who "ClioSport" are as a club and prove my point. Ive been a member of a couple of clubs, been to a couple of track days with other clubs, meetings with other clubs and all are very nice, calm people, but some of the members on here deserve to be shot.

How can this place class themselves as ONE OF THE BEST French Car Forums when you have is some members telling other people, sometimes complete strangers through ebay (me for example) what there car has and hasn't got. Im sure some of the members on here are calm and subdued even though they may not have believed it, they could let the person get on with it...and..I respect you for that.

Anyway, As im sure some of you are aware of the spec of my Clio so i wont post it again.

But firstly I apologise - the first advert I made a genuine mistake with posting the Power output on the ad, I accepted the changes.

But..HERE IS THE ANSWER YOU ARE ALL LOOKING FOR!

My car has roughly 175bhp at the wheels, with around 220bhp at the fly, The rolling road was done at The French Car Show in 2008 and has had another remap since then, late 2010, ive not had it rolling roaded again but hope its added a couple more bhp on, remember this isnt your average, corner garage map, this is one of the best CUSTOM RE-MAPS IN THE UK.

see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5GAneQPJNU listen at about 4:53 on the video, 195bhp is quoted. I have got rolling road print out showing the 195.6bhp from said rolling road which has been added to the Ebay advert

Most rolling roads work out flywheel bhp, not wheels (see below - example)

Imagine we take a car with a true 200 flywheel bhp engine to each of the various types of dyno. Assuming accurate dynos which is by no means always the case and calibration standards can vary then we would expect to see the following results.

Example - FWD
Engine dyno - 200 bhp
Hub Dyno - 200 x 0.93 = 186 bhp
Wheel dyno - (200 x 0.9) - 10 = 170 bhp

Clio
Engine dyno - 220bhp
Hub Dyno - 220 x 0.93 = 195.3bhp
Wheel dyno - (220 x 0.9) - 10 = 179 bhp

I understood I made some errors which a couple of your members "Kindly and Calmly" pointed out and I accepted their requests for change, with thanks.

All I suggest is for some members from this forum to simply stop verbally attacking other people trying to sell their cars. What happened to speak to someone how you would like them to speak to you.

If anyone has questions please let me know below, im pretty sure this post will get deleted shortly but im a kind, collected person and will answer all of the questions as I would like to be spoken to.

Thanks
Jay

 

[Nickson]

A thread was started about it if you looksie in here:

http://www.cliosport.net/forum/showthread.php?596038-Clio-172-220bhp-lols&p=7960098#post7960098

OP seems to think he is clever messaging you and posting them up..

Appears to have the maturity of a 10 year old kid tbh.

People like him are not exactly representative of the club, you just get the odd r****d here and there, as you do with any website I guess.

 

[MonsterClio]

Cant unfortunately, im not a full paid member.

Thanks
jay

 

[Fred@BTM]

What moddifications has the engine got?

 

[MonsterClio]

A thread was started about it if you looksie in here:

http://www.cliosport.net/forum/showthread.php?596038-Clio-172-220bhp-lols&p=7960098#post7960098

OP seems to think he is clever messaging you and posting them up..

Appears to have the matureness of a 10 year old kid tbh.

THANK YOU FOR SAYING THIS! To be honest there was a few of them.

You seem like a well respected member of the ClioSport community and thanks for understanding.

Jay

 

[MonsterClio]

2.0 16v
2x Custom ecu remap by Browns Motorsport and Viezu.
Cat back stainless steel decat exhaust with hidden back box
BMC CDA RAM-AIR induction kit
Magnecor 8.5mm racing leads
NGK platinum spark plugs
Full SFS Orange silicone hoses
Goodridge brake hose kit
Gaz fully adjustable coilovers
Drilled/grooved brake discs
EBC greenstuff racing brake pads
OMP front adjustable strut brace
OMP rear strut brace

 

[Fred@BTM]

so its a standard engine with a remap, air filter and exhaust?

you'll have around 175bhp @flywheel fella which is 150 @ wheels

 

[Craigus]

I see ads all the time where people are quoting 220bhp from a map and exhaust etc. It seems a bit over the top to message people and be rude just for the sake of it, no matter how wrong they might be.

 

[joshclio999]

if a remap, induction kit, spark plugs and exhaust got you to 220fwbhp you have the best clio engine ever made. Nice car btw, but somewhere along the line i think you have been mislead about the power

 

[Nickson]

I see ads all the time where people are quoting 220bhp from a map and exhaust etc. It seems a bit over the top to message people and be rude just for the sake of it, no matter how wrong they might be.

Hit the nail on the head.

 

[MonsterClio]

OK well im only going by what the the rolling road man in the video i posted up and the rolling road (attatched)

Dont know if this changes anything, it is an imported car.

Also Parkers quote my car at 172 bhp? Thats at the flywheel not wheels, correct?

Thanks
Jay

 

[Fred@BTM]

they all make 160-166 from factory, and the mobile rolling road is tosh, they will have fiddled it so it gives everyone good results (no refunds )

ask Paul @ RS tuning about red dot racing, all the cars that go there make 20bhp more than on his dyno, they're well known for giving bulls**t figures

a true 200bhp takes £3K, 220bhp takes £5K

 

[Revels]

I'm sorry that people have upset you with their comments and it's not a good way to advertise the club.

But as Fred says, you won't have that power with those mods. A RR can say pretty much whatever the operator wants it to say.

 

[Steven103]

Welcome, hopefully this thread won't have any of the member in it who make the club look bad :L


As covered rolling roads will read whatever they're calibrated to read. As a forum/club we are very aware of the optimistic claims and BS that remap adverts promise and the big range in RR results.

It simply looks like you've been misled by an optimistic RR print out or put a bit too much trust in it. In my book, and many others I suspect, that's no reason to be abused, threatened etc. You replied to those ebay messages in a mature, grown up and polite way trying to be helpful. If someone can't communicate with you in an equally grown up manor then they're not worth your time.

Parkers only write what Renault tell them. It's 172 PS. Which is 169 HP. However some more forum-knowledge shows us that renault's claims were a bit optimistic too and most 10 year old "172" engines produce around 160 HP at the flywheel. You can now hopefully see why claiming an extra 60 HP from a remap and an exhaust makes us suspicious. There are plenty of cars that could get 60 BHP from a remap and exhaust but the F4R-engined Clio is not one of them.

 

[.Mike]

Let's just say viezu figures are optimistic at best.
They 'live' mapped my old 197 on their dyno and quoted they had mapped me from 189 to 209 at the fly. When trialled on a dyno dynamics it came in at 186bhp with their map, with the standard map put back on it came in at 187.
They have done well convincing people with their own hype about how good they are. Yes, very good..... at fudging figures

 

[TheEvilGiraffe]

Most rolling roads work out flywheel bhp, not wheels (see below - example)

Imagine we take a car with a true 200 flywheel bhp engine to each of the various types of dyno. Assuming accurate dynos which is by no means always the case and calibration standards can vary then we would expect to see the following results.

Example - FWD
Engine dyno - 200 bhp
Hub Dyno - 200 x 0.93 = 186 bhp
Wheel dyno - (200 x 0.9) - 10 = 170 bhp

Clio
Engine dyno - 220bhp
Hub Dyno - 220 x 0.93 = 195.3bhp
Wheel dyno - (220 x 0.9) - 10 = 179 bhp

Hi, welcome etc.

Firstly, rolling roads or dynos measure the torque at the wheels/hubs. From that they calculate power.

Where are you getting your calculations from ? With the greatest respect, (I'm assuming this was told to you by whoever did your r/road?), they appear to have made it up to look good.

Parkers will quote a '2000-2001 RenaultSport Clio 172' at 172 BHP as that's what Renault tell the world the engine puts out at the flywheel in PS.

One PS is about 98.6% of a single brake horsepower – the two are virtually interchangeable, and PS is sometimes referred to as 'metric horsepower'.

 

[Space Cadet]

My 172 is running 202bhp and 175ftlb, but that’s after spending quite a few quid on ITB's and other bits and thanks to Mr Faulks. I believe 220bhp is possible, but with cams, larger injectors and some head work on top of this.

 

[Russ_16v]

Id just like to add that I think what was coming across in a bad way was as stated unfortunately most rolling roads do over read - and a dodgy mapper/operator can pretty much make a car show what figures he likes - we wouldnt want you getting any come back by anyone saying you have sold a 'dodgy' car - as Fred said (Well respected Specialist) it will have somewhere around 150bhp at the wheels, which is still a healthy engine

 

[MonsterClio]

Seems then that I may have been mislead, it was not my car originally and all of the paperwork was given to me by the original owner, who is a friend of mine (who was also featured in Performance French Car - MAR/APRIL time)

Im actually glad ive been on here, I was expecting a load of jumped up idiots who couldnt wait for the moment I came on here but now its been explained in english in a polite way thats made the whole thing feel better.

I understand that every dyno is different, i found the calculations on a website which (suprisingly) offered Rolling Road tests. But the thing that still bugs me is, if we cannot trust the rolling road or the operator, how are we ever going to know what BHP the car is running.

What I plan to do now is in the next couple of weeks (if it hasnt sold) is take it to another PROPER (if any) rolling road. Can anyone suggest any that are local to Oxon/Bucks/MK?

Cheers
Jay

 

[TheEvilGiraffe]

I understand that every dyno is different, i found the calculations on a website which (suprisingly) offered Rolling Road tests. But the thing that still bugs me is, if we cannot trust the rolling road or the operator, how are we ever going to know what BHP the car is running.

What I plan to do now is in the next couple of weeks (if it hasnt sold) is take it to another PROPER (if any) rolling road. Can anyone suggest any that are local to Oxon/Bucks/MK?

Cheers
Jay

There's really no point, unless you're getting overtaken by milkfloats.

I would use one (the same one before/after for obvious reasons) when doing a lot of work on the engine, to ensure it was all OK .. ITBs + cams for instance, to ensure the fuelling is right and obviously get some bragging rights for the pub... :rasp: however, there's no point really wasting your time and money unless you think there's a problem with it as you've nothing to compare it to.

 

[Fred@BTM]

http://www.track-group.com/ - they're dyno is gospel, they do a lot of clios

 

[MonsterClio]

There's really no point, unless you're getting overtaken by milkfloats.

I would use one (the same one before/after for obvious reasons) when doing a lot of work on the engine, to ensure it was all OK .. ITBs + cams for instance, to ensure the fuelling is right and obviously get some bragging rights for the pub... :rasp: however, there's no point really wasting your time and money unless you think there's a problem with it as you've nothing to compare it to.

to be honest I just want to get an accurate figure, ive been through a lot of Sh** on ebay etc and just want a figure I can happily quote with the modifications it has at the moment.

(and yes milk-floats do overtake me at the moment as its in storage)

Jay

 

[Craigus]

Just state it as 172. Most other people will just state that regardless if you feel you NEED a figure. No offense, but your Mods aren't extensive, and will probably bring it up to power anyway. People who are interested probably won't be chasing figures like someone who is buying a High power Jap car etc.

 

[JackJack]

I see ads all the time where people are quoting 220bhp from a map and exhaust etc. It seems a bit over the top to message people and be rude just for the sake of it, no matter how wrong they might be.

^This. Can't say i was surprised when i saw who the op was of the other thread.

 

[Space Cadet]

As Fred said, try Track-Group, that's where I’ve had all my engine work done, they're the best in the business.

 

[TheEvilGiraffe]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8e1xvyTdBZI

 

[Don]

Howdy,

As has been said...there are so many variants which can affect a RR reading...and we're talking aboutfinite things like tyre pressures can affect the readings. A fair few places will do their own measurements and do you an excel graph to show you what their interpretation of your results are. I had one place ask me to turn my auto lights off so he could flash when he was doing an indicated 30/50/70mph to see what the rollers were saying the car was doing.

Take figures with a pinch of salt as that is all they are...figures. I think that the only way to get a 'true' result on the engine would be to take it out and run it in an environment without any other things to factor in (so its the engine itself and doesn't include tyres, driver, etc). But the cost of doing that would be silly and all for 'in the pub' banter, just ain't worth it (in my opinion).

 

[Gally]

I blame Renault for the whole 172/182/197 thing!

It's a shame the op has bern mislead. As a lot of people have when having their engine modified and dyno'd.

Most have explained the situation with your figures and not everyone is like Rob. (the ebay guy)

 

[Russ_16v]

Go with what Fred has said mate, those rollers are spot on as you can hope for

 

[Nickson]

<3

 

[Marky_]

Welcome to CS

Good to see that you've actually taken the time to sign up here instead of just writing the club off as a bunch of idiots, as i suspect many people would have done in your situation.

 

[jonny_rs]

Welcome to CS

Good to see that you've actually taken the time to sign up here instead of just writing the club off as a bunch of idiots, as i suspect many people would have done in your situation.

Agreed! Hope it hasn't put you off mate, the forum is a great tool!

 

[StephenJ]

Hope it hasn't put you off mate, the forum is full of tools!

Bit strong TBH
Welcome to CS mate, we've spoken before at local meets when I had my Ph2 172.

 

[Adam G]

Really wouldn't worry about the RR pal, just list the mods it's had,that will suffice for a genuine buyer IMO. Like mentioned before RRs are only really useful for remaps and bigpower turbo boys.

 

[Gally]

RR is really only for willy waivers.

 

[Craigus]

willy waivers.

What, like a "If you get pregnant, I will not be held accountable" type thing?

 

[Adam G]

^pmsl

 

[smallbaws]

RR is really only for willy waivers.

This man speaks the truth ^^^ My Clio is fast enough, could not give a flying f4ck about an extra 5=10 bhp

 

[andyclio172]

I must admit I have had some really unpleasent experiences on ebay with people emailing me when I have been selling a renault clio 172/182 and being really smart and degrading your advert.

They give this club a BAD NAME. They love to tell you that they are a member on cliosport then go on to tear your advert apart and then offer you £1000 for a 2003 model 172 which at the time back in 2008 was worth a hell of a lot more than that.

The club in general has got a lot of nice people on it who if you are incorrect about something will politely guide you in the right direction however like us as people do we all seem to remember the bad ones and this can cloud our opinion on things.

 

[MonsterClio]

Hi All

Just want to thank the people that have been understanding and not a load of idiots about this, as you know just thought I would see what the club is really about.

I would like to reply to each post but, tbh there is too many! But Im going to be removing the BHP quotes as soon as ebay let me and I think the car is fast enough so Rolling road is no longer needed (thanks to someones post here..milkfloat and all that)...oh and video was a good reply..

Im sure the club is great and if ever I get a clio again (owning a 2.2 DCi Laguna put me off Renault for a while!) I will join!

TVM!

All the best
Jay