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LSD - talk to me
- Thread starter Cup_Phil
- Start date
Doesn't say a lot without context.
I said the quaiffe is useful 99.99 percent of the time, when the wheels are on the ground.
and yes the gripper is good at that bit, but i didnt say that was all it wAs good for. Thats you not reading it properly if you think that. its good for any spirited driving, but not so good for manoeuvring etc so less suited to a daily.
The quaiffe is nearly as good on track as the gripper, and just as good on the road as a standard.
Exactly mate. Quaiffe makes a huge difference versus standard and with no downside.
Gripper does all the spirited stuff as well or better. But loses out on road manners.
I've got a Gripper thanks to James fitted with the lower final drive, I've had a Quaife in the 205 and they do spin up even on tight hairpins but are worth the money if all you want is longevity and fit and forget, I'm looking at servicing the gripper on a 3-5 year turn around for what I use the car for, I reckon that's about the life of a rebuilt box dependant on how it's driven, but for your purpose the Gripper is a better deal and as you want to compete will gain you more time, mine came with a life time warranty as well, I drive the car to all events and is over 3K since fitting along with a 6 month oil change.
I agree with all that Swede Cup has said.
Regards Russ........
I agree with all that Swede Cup has said.
Regards Russ........
For what Phil says he will use it for I think he would be better with the gripper personally.I'm confused, which is better then?
182cup & 172 racecar
Left foot braking will also have the same effect, it makes the diff think the wheel is on the ground.
What do you guys run Tony?
It sounds like gripper might be the best especially if I can get 3-5 years between servicing it. I was under the impression it might need re-torquing every year.
It sounds like gripper might be the best especially if I can get 3-5 years between servicing it. I was under the impression it might need re-torquing every year.
182cup & 172 racecar
Quaife Phil.
Mainly because, when we built the car, a gripper needed different drive shafts made. Couldn't arsed with that, plus just wanted a fit and forget.
Got enough to think about and other things to spend money tbqh.
Gripper would be better though.
Chicane at Donny for you.
Mainly because, when we built the car, a gripper needed different drive shafts made. Couldn't arsed with that, plus just wanted a fit and forget.
Got enough to think about and other things to spend money tbqh.
Gripper would be better though.
Chicane at Donny for you.
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Dammmmnn. Gripper might be better - but I really wouldn't be unhappy with that!! lol
imprezaworks
ClioSport Club Member
Mk5 Golf GTI :)
Love that clip
I've uploaded a really short one from mine at Donington
Disclaimer : This was on my old coilovers, without the new geo settings, and on road tyres. But still...
Disclaimer : This was on my old coilovers, without the new geo settings, and on road tyres. But still...
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Fwiw the Type R integra's are fitted with a helical diff (same as the quaife) and I must say I never had a problem with it spinning a wheel etc.
Just re read this and lol. Things that stuck out were a wheel off the ground is 'peculiar' or I 'supposedly' lift wheels at Knockhill (just lying to make friends)
Remember folks, Chip says a Quaife is 99.9% as good as a Plated diff hence why everyone runs them in Motorsport, no wait.....they DON'T!!! Not to mention the braking stability they provide but what do I know I'm not Simon the great.
Remember folks, Chip says a Quaife is 99.9% as good as a Plated diff hence why everyone runs them in Motorsport, no wait.....they DON'T!!! Not to mention the braking stability they provide but what do I know I'm not Simon the great.
182cup & 172 racecar
Have you got a wasps nest in your pants.
You seem a little disturbed. .
You seem a little disturbed. .
Gripper does not need new shafts, it does however need a conversion ring to be purchased and welded to the original crown wheel if a Gripper crown wheel and pinion are not being used.
This extra work can be done by Gripper if you original crown wheel/diff is sent to them.
Steve
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IME its fairly peculiar for a front wheel drive car to have a wheel off the ground at the same time as you need to apply full power yes.
Like I said though I havent done knockhill so all I can do is take your word for that, the reason I said supposedly is that I only say things for certain when I know them for certain, which in this case as I havent ever done knockhill I dont, so I can only say that is apparently the way one is supposed to take every corner at knockhill based on your comments.
That is NOT what I said though at ANY point, you are just completely unable to read properly.
I said that 99.99% of the time they were not one wheel drive like you were claming they "only ever" are, its only when a wheel is off the ground that they are completely snookered.
When both wheels are on the ground, you still get a difference in behaviour between the quaiffe and the gripper though, as the quaiffe attempts to shuffle power from one wheel to the other in a environment where you are struggling for grip, so you can get an unsettling effect on the car as a result, so if you are trying to lay a lot of torque down in a low gear although its still a huge improvement over the standard diff which would just peel one tyre up, its less stable than a gripper in the same situation. So for that reason I would never say that the quaiffe was better in competition use than the gripper, I was just saying it was a massive improvement on standard, which you were implying it wasnt, which simply was inaccurate of you.
Indeed they dont, and I have NEVER said otherwise, and multiple times in this thread I have said that if Phil wants to compete then for that I would choose the gripper personally.
What you seem to know, is the same as most of us with experience do about the gripper and when its useful or not, but absolutely sweet FA about the quaiffe other than some stuff you read on google.
Im not here trying to sell a Quaiffe to Phil or anyone else like you are implying, Im saying they give a good improvement with no downsides when compared to the standard diff (other than purchase cost!), but that for competition use the gripper gives a better improvement on track in exchange for worse road manners and more servicing.
You keep quoting I'm saying that they are ONLY one wheel drive?
At no point did I actually say that they weren't an improvement (did I?) on standard or even implied it, I said they act the same as an open diff at times, not just when a wheel leaves the ground. They are constantly switching between the operation of an open diff and torque biassing system. By that nature they will be giving drive to one wheel only at more times than you like to think. Unless they lock both driveshafts together you can't say otherwise.
I also said they in my first posts that they have their uses but going back to the OP's uses which is what's this all about I said if your paying out for a diff then don't waste your time with the Quaife (in other words)
I said I didn't want to start a s**t throwing comp but It then became a Chip wins all thread again and your points of interest sway in the favour of the person your debating with (reference goal posts moving)
Their good but there not great and I buy the best that my money gets me (similar cost) so see no sense in having a Quaife for mine or the OP's uses.
^^^ And their not as bulletproof as you always reference Chip in an argument against a plated diff.
At no point did I actually say that they weren't an improvement (did I?) on standard or even implied it, I said they act the same as an open diff at times, not just when a wheel leaves the ground. They are constantly switching between the operation of an open diff and torque biassing system. By that nature they will be giving drive to one wheel only at more times than you like to think. Unless they lock both driveshafts together you can't say otherwise.
I also said they in my first posts that they have their uses but going back to the OP's uses which is what's this all about I said if your paying out for a diff then don't waste your time with the Quaife (in other words)
I said I didn't want to start a s**t throwing comp but It then became a Chip wins all thread again and your points of interest sway in the favour of the person your debating with (reference goal posts moving)
Their good but there not great and I buy the best that my money gets me (similar cost) so see no sense in having a Quaife for mine or the OP's uses.
^^^ And their not as bulletproof as you always reference Chip in an argument against a plated diff.
182cup & 172 racecar
Not now you don't Steve, but when we built the car, you needed shaft alterations, there was a group buy on them as well, but was put off becsuse of the shaft thing.
I know thats not the case now, and never ssid it was.
Yes, because you said:
What they actually do is attempt to bias the torque between the two wheels to make use of the grip of both, there are actually some circumstances when this outperforms the gripper in fact, pulling out of a T junction from a standstill for example, as the quaiffe does a better job of using both wheels when the car isnt leaning and there is a big speed difference between the two wheels, where the gripper will try and limit the slip in that situation and if the plates are loaded up a lot can actually make the car feel more understeery than the quaiffe by comparison, so in that circumstance the quaiffe is even more "two wheel drive" than the gripper is, so its a total nonsense to refer to them as only ever 1 wheel drive.
I dont personally know of anyone who has had a failure of a quaiffe unless it was caused by a gearbox failing and putting swarf into it, they seem to be massively over engineered for the job at hand, even when running double the power that any of us in this thread have in a clio.
So while I wouldnt claim its impossible one could fail, Ive certainly never heard of it happening, and IIRC they have a lifetime warranty anyway if it does?
I think its probably the thing out of all performance items you can fit to a car that I would have the most confidence it will just carry on working for the next 100K miles TBH!
182cup & 172 racecar
Oh, have I been lucky then. Mines mousey quiet.
What I meant in relation to the rest of that post is that they are constantly sending power to one shaft or another, never two at the same point, its a constant switch over between left and right.
I haven't heard of a failure that wasn't caused by something external either but I have heard of loads of highly worn gears/cogs. Gripper and most plated diffs have a lifetime warranty so that point means nothing in the gripper v Quaife argument.
Phil wants a Gripper for his uses and shouldn't be scared by the chat on here of serviceable items and so on, they last very well unless there's a fault which same as Quaife is warranty covered. How many higher powered cars (400bhp up) use an ATB diff? Everyone switches to plated as the power just multiplies their flaws and start to spin wheels everywhere
I don't see why you keep referencing road driving either, who fits a diff to do the shopping.
Tony I'm not saying their rubbish, they have uses but not on track when you can get better for the same money.
I haven't heard of a failure that wasn't caused by something external either but I have heard of loads of highly worn gears/cogs. Gripper and most plated diffs have a lifetime warranty so that point means nothing in the gripper v Quaife argument.
Phil wants a Gripper for his uses and shouldn't be scared by the chat on here of serviceable items and so on, they last very well unless there's a fault which same as Quaife is warranty covered. How many higher powered cars (400bhp up) use an ATB diff? Everyone switches to plated as the power just multiplies their flaws and start to spin wheels everywhere
I don't see why you keep referencing road driving either, who fits a diff to do the shopping.
Tony I'm not saying their rubbish, they have uses but not on track when you can get better for the same money.
At the moment as tempting as it is to go full blown gripper, I'm thinking of buying a Quaiffe through one of the guys on here who can get them cheap, then posting it with my gearbox to Agency as they seem to have made a great job of Tony's and others on here.
Then the engine will be coming down to you for belts, rod bolts, rocker cover re-seal and a check over.
Is it safe enough for me to fit a new clutch and bolt engine back to gearbox? I read a few people saying you can fit the gearbox wrong and kill them? :|
No-one - but I do go to shows in it, weekend blasts with mates and the ring/euro road trip next year. 2,500 miles in 2 weeks.
Also 400bhp is fine but even if I fit cams mine will only have 210bhp.
I just can't help but think the gripper is overkill - and £500 extra. Considering the performance of the burpspeed car. If I got a laptime near them around Donington - I'd be on the podium in the time attack class I'm entering next year.
Even thats not correct Im afraid mate, although you can feel it shuffling the power around in certain circumstances (put 300lbft down in 2nd gear and it is very noticeable for example even on good flat tarmac in a straight line) its not sending 100 percent to one and then to the other, its just sending more to one than the other (ie 70/30 or whatever the actual values are)
Seems weird you would say they arent bullet proof then TBH.
Agreed, the maintenance referred to in this thread is to keep the diff working properly as they lose aggressiveness over time, and also the gear oil gets heated more so needs changing more often too.
I know of quite a few vauxhalls running more power than 400bhp with a quaiffe TBH, but mostly they are drag cars so its not the same thing, TBH though trackday FWD cars with over 400bhp are relatively few and far between other than the new Focus RS whih seems to often be over that level, and they all tend to use the quaiffe but thats just cause they already have one rather than cause they choose it.
There are LOTS of people on here who use the same car for shopping as for trackdays, myself included TBH, so while you dont fit a diff specifically for going shopping you may still end up going to the shops in the car when you have fitted a diff to help with trackdays, if thats the sort of use someones car sees a lot (which in Phil's case it sounds like he doesnt, although with his track record he may change his mind again, lol) then the quaiffe is good in that it gives you most of the benefits of a plate diff but without any of the downsides, hence they are generally the choice of manufacturers.
Ring trip with a gripper is no drama at all, its only very low speed manouvreing you notice them as being a bit annoying, and even then its only a case of slightly heavier steering and a noise to ignore, its not something that will bother you with the sort of use that you mention I dont think Phil.
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if you ain't on 2 wheels you ain't trying - simples
Amen to that.
Sounds like you want a Quaife or its better suited to what you will do with the car then. If you can get a Quaife for £500 less all costs considered inc postage with both boxes being rebuilt then I would bite his hand off.
My point was missed by you Chip in the sense that more powerful cars multiply their weaknesses and spin wheels (FWD, RWD and i presume 4WD but have never known anyone with one fitted)
Not £500 - but the costs are looking like being around a grand fitted for the Quaife or £1400+ for the gripper
It's £400 more and although I understand where it would be better I'm still stuck at "if it's good enough on the burpspeed car" lol
There are a lot of other things to be done - and I'm just thinking saving £400 on the diff would cover cams, or a couple of tuition sessions. Which would probably be more beneficial than the extra little bit a gripper would offer over a quaife.
Evo 5 RS
Quaife do offer a service, not sure if the noisy ones were fitted by them? Should hope not as they charge in limbs!
Thinking about it. The quaife will *effectively* lock. As when I drove chips turbo at Bedford(and 2damsly will vouch) I left a set of 11's away from him when giving it the big one in a straight line.
IIRC my quaiffe including a box rebuild ended up costing me about 1200 quid by the time i'd spent some fuel money running about as well as the cost of the quaiffe and the price of the rebuild.
Wasnt missed by me mate, I just didnt see any point commenting on it as it is true and needed no further input especially as Ive said so myself in this thread as well in fact where I have mentioned several times about the shimmying left to right you can feel when trying to lay down a lot of power as it shifts some of the power side to side.
Ive currently got quaiffes in fwd and rwd cars, on 4wd cars the quaiffe is absolutely fantastic for the front axle, very popular in escort cosworths for example which I have driven with quaiffes in as well although TBH not as hard as Ive driven fwd and rwd cars with them, but I have been passenger in 4wd cars with a quaiffe front diff used in anger and I think its spot on for that use even at huge power levels, I couldnt detect any of the moving around that you get in a FWD car..
Paddock hill at brands? If you clip the apex on that and end up on two wheels you'd be f**ked! I don't think any diff would save you with the drop! LOL
Yeah the donington chicane you're absolutely right - hard on the 4 pots coming up to it, off the brakes, turn in and the guys with diffs are on the power right through the chicane. I have to come off the brakes, turn in and feather the throttle until the car is in a straight line on the straight - then power back on. Loses seconds through their behind my mates EP3 with a diff
I tried applying a bit of power through the chicane but the front wheels light up and you understeer off the right side of the straight lol
If you are thinking of applying power mid chicane you've over braked a bit? Don't brake so much, turn in, do nothing (apart from steer) and then power on through\after 2nd apex. Works for nearly all chicanes as long as they are not too big\long. Keeps the minimum speed up too.
Its designed to work with the standard one, not aware of quaiffe offering an alternative like gripper do.
So the only options I personally know of are the different standard renault ones (ive got 2 quaiffes in clios at the moment, one on ph1 FD and one on Ph2)
Although the gripper ones could no doubt be adapted to fit too.
