My quest for the perfect fast-road suspension setup

[plenty]

I recently picked up a 182 which came fully fettled for the track. I actually took delivery of the car at a garage where it had just been serviced with brand-new brake discs, hoses, pads and fluid fitted, set up and corner-weighted ready for a trip to the Nurburgring.

However the owner's plans changed and I became the new custodian of the little Liquid Yellow buzz box.

I am not a track driver but I do like to make progress on the road. It quickly became apparent that the setup on this car was too hard for road driving. It was fitted with brand-new BC DS coilovers on the front with 9kg/mm springs, and AST 4100 units on the rear, plus a new Whiteline rear arb.

Pending confirmation from AST I suspect the "450" lettering on the Eibach-made springs denotes poundage, 450 lbs/in corresponding to 9 kg/mm.

The setup while no doubt superb on track discourages spirited driving on the road. With only 950 kgs of car to deal with every undulation makes its presence felt, and the thin plastic seat base of the Corbeau Clubsport buckets is felt constantly flexing through the derriere.

So the quest is on to find a new setup. The first and foremost criterion is enough compliance to deliver a good primary ride - essential in my opinion for a road car. I appreciate many others have been down this path before, but having devoured all available information on Cliosport.net and indeed the internet, I am still left with questions hence this thread which hopefully may be of use to others.

 

[David Stuart]

Cooksports and cup shocks are a good road set up.

Also bilstien b14s get a good review for road.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[frayz]

Funny enough im treading a similar path.
I have not long fitted AST 5100s to my 182, previously on Cup dampers. The problem with many off the peg coilovers is they're designed primarily for track any are just too highly sprung for the road. Perfect for a polished surface but on bumps and undulations, they just don't work. This is the reason i went AST so i could have them valved and sprung for the road. If they made them then i would be buying KW clubsport 2 ways, again as i had these on my Impreza and they were absolutely mega on the road.

Here's an extract from a reply i wrote on Pistonheads to a similar question on feedback for my dampers and diff.

Ha, well I've been back at work 3 weeks so I’ve driven it every day.

The usual spring rates most go for on the ASTs are for track usage and many opt for 90N front with 110N rear. They basically set up the rear so stiff that the front just drags it around the track. Fine if you’re racing on slicks but awful on the road and much slower than a standard car would be.
I spoke to Simon Joy and Josh Cook (Ex Clio Cup racer/current BTCC driver) at AST at some length before choosing mine and Josh recommended 70N fronts with a 40N rear as this is apparently what he runs/ran on his own road car. While that may sound like they're really soft, let me assure you, on the road they're anything but!

I have 12 clicks of adjustment on the damper settings and am currently at 7 clicks front and 6 clicks rear. I'm still finding my feet with them so I’ll drive them like this for a few weeks and get myself used to them before altering them again.

I live in the east of Essex and the surrounding roads are all country lanes and fast B roads which are pretty undulating. Well kept for the most part but anything but polished and flat. On the road the dampers are firm, compliant but very firm. I'm so glad i didn't go any higher on the spring rates than i have. The body control is pretty good and on the R888s the corning ability is pretty staggering. The rate at which you can cover ground in it now is really beyond what should be available from a 15 year old French box. However i will say that along with the dampers, i added the roll centre hubs. This is when the wheels/tyres went on too, so a drop in wheel size from 16" to 15" and from Michelin PS3s to Toyo R888s.

So I’m attributing some of the firmness to the tyres as they have very little give.

I’m running a pretty low ride height, but not daft low like some. Even still, you do have to modify the bumper brackets in the front as these catch on the tyre and i can’t be dealing with scrubbing issues, I’m 37, not 17 anymore, Ha.
I could raise the ride height but to be honest i like its aggressive little stance it has. The front track is now approx. 42mm wider than stock (16mm spacers +5mm from the roll centre kit so 21mm per side) and with 2 degrees of camber up front it looks hard as nails head on. Again, i could go less aggressive on wheel spacing but i like how it looks.

If i was on track id say this setup would be pretty damn good for how i like to drive, i may even go firmer still if on track, but i like to feel the weight transfer in the car. Go too stiff and you start to lose a lot of feel and that's not how i like my cars to feel.

As for the road, i think I’ll play for a bit and then try dialling it back and run it as soft as i can but still maintain the body control. The dampers have also massively reduced the amount of droop the car runs now so wheel travel is different to before and it will pick up a tyre front or rear almost anywhere if you're on it. I like my cars to be compliant and let the dampers control the tyre contact properly, none of this skipping about nonsense. As it stands if you hit a big bump at big speed it will skip so i want to dial a little more of that out. None of this is an issue thanks to the diff i might add.

Even with it being firmer than the Cup dampers / Eibach springs it wore before, the ride is significantly improved. Again, the car runs spherical bearings on both topmounts, lower joints and TCAs so you feel everything through the steering and there’s zero slack in anything attached to the steering wheel. With the ASTs you feel the damper working so much better than before and i think all the changes have attributed to amount of feel and feedback you now have.

The diff is probably one of my favourite additions. I think every hot hatch should come with one as standard. The hook up out of corners now is great, no more loss of drive and it just darts for the apex. Even as simple as pulling out of a wet junction or roundabout is now so much more confidence inspiring as you just feel the front end hook up. Lumps, bumps and any time you feel the car leave the ground you know the drive is kept consistent and it provides a much nicer feel IMO.

I think if you own a 172/182, don't mess with anything else and just put a proper diff in it. It’s the best thing you'll do as it can be enjoyed at all speeds and situations with zero negative effects.
If anything i think the modifications to the chassis now fully highlight the shortcomings in the power department. Its crying out for a bit more go, so i may look at a few tweaks in that area soon too. Nothing major, maybe some timing, mapping changes just to make the drivability better and allow it to rev out cleaner.

Overall i think the car is getting quite serious now in its focus and intent.
I’m looking at making it a proper little clubsport spec car with perhaps a rear cage, as the rear seats cannot be accessed with the Pole Positions and are just there for decoration anyway.
All carpets and trim would remain so it would be a mini R26-R / GT3 Clubsport if you will. I think done right it would not detract from it being a quality little package.

I hope that offers a little insight as to how it feels now.

Not sure where you're based, but if you're Essex direction, you're very welcome to try it.

 

[plenty]

On every single car I have owned previously that came fitted with coilovers, I have junked them in favour of struts and springs. The front BCs are valved for 9 kg/mm meaning I could swap the springs for 7 kg/mm at the softest, which I suspect might still be too stiff.

The first port of call therefore is to try OEM suspension.

New struts are cheap but I happened to find a used set locally with H+R springs, which at least visually were in good condition so I figured no harm to give them a try. At least would give me some practice fitting the parts.

It couldn't have been easier to take the rears off and put on new (used) parts. Except that I didn't have the correct rear top mounts so there was a wait while I sourced those. Was amazed to discover you can actually change the suspension without even taking the wheels off.

The fronts were a little more tricky due to the upward pressure exerted on the hub by the anti-roll bar, but once you've got one side on, the other is cake.

Here's the kit that came off. Top branded gear for sure. I'll keep hold of it for now just in case I ever decide to do a trackday, or in case I try the 7 kg/mm BC spring option.

 

[plenty]

Managed a road test yesterday. I live in Central London a long way from interesting roads, so a decent shakedown isn't that easy to do. It actually takes me longer to accomplish a road test than it does to change suspension

150 mile round trip starting at 5.30 am Sunday on some of my favourite lanes and I've gathered some data.

Positives: The improvement in compliance is fabulous. Instead of the Corbeau seat based flexing on my bum every few seconds, it flexes only every few minutes. Much more poised over the ground on your average B-road surface, whereas on the coilovers the car would be all over the place and I'd be backing off.

Negative: Body roll. I'm not averse to a bit of lean and accept that this is a necessary tradeoff with softer springs, but a bit less would be ideal. Already have a rear arb. I wonder if lowering of the roll centre due to the H+R springs which drop the car approx 30mm may be contributing to this.

Negative 2: Turn-is is substantially less precise going from solid BC front top mounts to rubber mounts. The rubber mounts are used which probably isn't helping. I like a sharp front end to give me confidence to carry speed into corners, and this definitely isn't it.

 

[plenty]

The options as I see them in descending order of cost and complexity are:

1. Install OEM Cup springs to replace the H+R items and restore the OEM roll centre. I'm running 15" rims and the arch gap will no doubt be visually displeasing but that doesn't really bother me.
2. Install softer springs on the coilovers. I can go down to 7 kg/mm with the front BCs. I could also source BC rear units or investigate softer springs from AST on the rear.
3. Solid top mounts with OEM struts (would improve turn-in but I'd still be left with body roll)
4. Roll centre hubs.

And I can't ignore that my impressions are based on used components, whereas new ones might feel fresher. I'd love to try a car with brand-new all-OEM components to see what that's like, but chances of that are slim I reckon. For now I will start with #1 and go from there.

 

[JB21]

Sachs suspension from the Trophy sounds like it would be your best bet.

I ruined my 182 cup for the road fitting AST 4100 with 9kg front/11kg rear springs. Hated the thing until I got it on track. I also has Corbeau Clubsports and the flex in the seat base was shocking.

 

[plenty]

There is actually a set of Sachs on sale now requiring refurb. However once refurb is done that's the thick end of a grand and ultimately they are 15-year old tech. For the same money would Trophy suspension still be better than B14s, or BCs with 4 kg/mm front springs?

All viable options. As always, the journey is at least as fun as the destination!

 

[Steven103]

The front BCs are valved for 9 kg/mm meaning I could swap the springs for 7 kg/mm at the softest

How did you arrive at that conclusion, out of interest? Do BC publish damping curves anywhere?

What do you plan on doing next? Still interested in spending money to get improvements, or content with what you have now?

Edit: nvm, you’ve answered that.

 

[plenty]

You can typically go down +/- 2 kg/mm without needing to re-valve dampers. I had this confirmed to me directly by BC.

 

[JB21]

There is actually a set of Sachs on sale now requiring refurb. However once refurb is done that's the thick end of a grand and ultimately they are 15-year old tech. For the same money would Trophy suspension still be better than B14s, or BCs with 4 kg/mm front springs?

All viable options. As always, the journey is at least as fun as the destination!

Not the same car but similar weights, I've got Miester R coilovers on my MR2 (which are very similar to the BC's) with 5kg front and 7kg rear and they are lovely and compliant on the road. Maybe sell what you have now and get a new set of BC's with similar spring rates.

 

[Clio_fool]

Weren't Meister R supposed to be making coilovers for the 182?

 

[Ant1]

Cup shocks, lowering springs, PMS solid top mounts, PMS front strut brace, rear arb, camber bolts setup up @ 1.5

 

[plenty]

Cup shocks, lowering springs, PMS solid top mounts, PMS front strut brace, rear arb, camber bolts setup up @ 1.5

Good shout. Camber bolts definitely in the pipeline if I stick with OEM struts. I noticed a lot more tyre squeal on the OEM setup compared with running the BCs on max camber. I suspect the reduction in camber may also be contributing to the vagueness in the steering I experienced.

I have a full cage so not sure if a strut brace worth adding?

Above setup would still leave me with the issue of roll which presumably roll-centre hubs would sort.

 

[Ant1]

Good shout. Camber bolts definitely in the pipeline if I stick with OEM struts. I noticed a lot more tyre squeal on the OEM setup compared with running the BCs on max camber. I suspect the reduction in camber may also be contributing to the vagueness in the steering I experienced.

I have a full cage so not sure if a strut brace worth adding?

Above setup would still leave me with the issue of roll which presumably roll-centre hubs would sort.

Full weld in connected to front towers? If not the strut brace will reduce flex on front end. Rear arb will reduce overall body roll really must be tested.

 

[plenty]

Bolted to plates welded to the floor. I've never felt the benefits of strut braces on other cars, so please forgive me if I come across sceptical! Got the rear ARB already.

 

[Ant1]

Only other setup worth mentioning is the B14s, I run these with solid PMS top mounts and camber bolts. Similar dampening to oem but with good turn in and body control. Problem is 5-700£ is a lot of money to splash out if it’s not going to give you the end result you want.

 

[frayz]

The Clio isn’t exactly lacking in rigidity however I think a front brace is more beneficial in Supporting the loads exerted by a solid Topmount providing its of the design that bolts you the topmounts such as the PMS

 

[plenty]

Noticed the B14 has a softer rear spring (5 kg/mm) than front, unlike track-biased coilovers which emphasise a stiffer rear (BC for example only offer one rear spring option, 8 kg/mm).

Understand the rationale for this on track when a mobile rear end can be useful, but I suspect it's a stiff rear (!) that contributes to the poor ride on the road, particularly when there is so little weight on that end of the car.

Also have a hunch that the perception of roll is being led by the front end (particularly as I already have the Whiteline rear arb), and the combo of stiffer front / softer rear may be the ticket.

Might try the combo of BC fronts with solid top mounts and 7 kg/mm spring, with an H+R lowering spring (OEM comparable rate) and Cup dampers on the rear.

 

[plenty]

It’s also just occurred to me that as the ASTs are a proper coilover with the spring mounted at the centre line of the hub unlike the OEM setup which has the springs in-board of the hub, that the effective spring rate at the rear will be stiffer on the ASTs. This might be the main reason for the poor performance of the coilover setup on road and in fact a coilover front plus separate spring/damper rear is worth trying.

 

[Kev@KAM]

Weren't Meister R supposed to be making coilovers for the 182?

Its still happening. Once the Covid situation is over I will be getting the first prototype. However its being designed as a track setup initially with the appropriate springrates.

Noticed the B14 has a softer rear spring (5 kg/mm) than front, unlike track-biased coilovers which emphasise a stiffer rear (BC for example only offer one rear spring option, 8 kg/mm).

Understand the rationale for this on track when a mobile rear end can be useful, but I suspect it's a stiff rear (!) that contributes to the poor ride on the road, particularly when there is so little weight on that end of the car.

Also have a hunch that the perception of roll is being led by the front end (particularly as I already have the Whiteline rear arb), and the combo of stiffer front / softer rear may be the ticket.

Might try the combo of BC fronts with solid top mounts and 7 kg/mm spring, with an H+R lowering spring (OEM comparable rate) and Cup dampers on the rear.

The B14 is a coilover kit designed for the road and therefore wet weather stability is designed into the setup much like an oem car.
Its a very good road kit and generally I loved the ride as it reacts well over bumps yet is firmer through the bends. The monotube dampers (although the kit has firmer front springs to H&R) react with more finesse so its well behaved.

I think your first port of call should be to get the roll centre kit on as this will help the front end balance and grip and then evaluate from there.

The trick with road suspension is to go as soft as you can to keep traction, but firm enough to reduce chassis roll and inspire confidence.
Id rather a firmer rear ARB than significantly increasing spring rate to get a similar effect.

The other thing to think about is how much maintenance is required to maintain the suspension. Race suspension tends to need rebuilding more and more attention to keeping it clean etc.

 

[Kev@KAM]

40nmm rear springs on coilovers for the AST road version would be roughly the same as a 450lb inner spring. Its still firm compared to the Bilstein which is a 275lb spring. Thats shows how the Bilstein is more daily driver setup than most other coilovers. The AST would be about the same as the BC rear spring rate so you have an idea of how firm the rear would be.

 

[npt]

I have b14's and there ok for the road, bit soft if pushing very hard bit not to bad and deal with potholes etc reasonably well, if I was you I'd go for the trophy set up if you can find a complete set, gotta be hands down the best set up for road by a mile imo

 

[McGherkin]

9kg/mm, LOL. That’s what they offer for their ‘race’ spring on my Volvo which puts 900kg on the front axle lol. Frayz’ suggestion is 7kg/mm which is a road spring for mine, you probably want to go even softer, probably a 6kg up front, but a 7 kilo spring shouldn’t be too bad.

 

[frayz]

9kg/mm, LOL. That’s what they offer for their ‘race’ spring on my Volvo which puts 900kg on the front axle lol. Frayz’ suggestion is 7kg/mm which is a road spring for mine, you probably want to go even softer, probably a 6kg up front, but a 7 kilo spring shouldn’t be too bad.

Even at 70/40 on the road and just above mid point damping, its significantly harsher than the Cayman Rs suspension.
No way id go higher than that on the road as they car simply wont work and be awful to be in.

 

[McGherkin]

Yeah, lower than 7 kilo would be great but it would mean revalving the dampers he has.

 

[plenty]

7 kg/mm springs ordered from BC. Going to try these on the front along with the H+R springs + Cup dampers at the rear. Not sure about H+R spring rates but assume they are similar to OEM Cup rate. If I'm correct then this combo will be broadly similar to the B14 spring rates which are published at 400 lbs front / 285 lbs rear.

My hunch is that the key to a good primary ride is to go as soft as possible at the back. My stripped car is so light that when jacking on the beam you only get a small bit of suspension movement before the entire car lifts.

 

[McGherkin]

Sounds like a much better setup. Keep us posted.

 

[frayz]

7 kg/mm springs ordered from BC. Going to try these on the front along with the H+R springs + Cup dampers at the rear. Not sure about H+R spring rates but assume they are similar to OEM Cup rate. If I'm correct then this combo will be broadly similar to the B14 spring rates which are published at 400 lbs front / 285 lbs rear.

My hunch is that the key to a good primary ride is to go as soft as possible at the back. My stripped car is so light that when jacking on the beam you only get a small bit of suspension movement before the entire car lifts.

If you're jacking on the beam then the beam will still be holding the weight of the car. All be it a point closer to the fulcrum.

 

[plenty]

Yes that's of course true. When jacking directly under the hub you see much more suspension movement, as you would expect.

 

[Usr117063]

My asts came with 70/70 before I went 90/110, had to turn up the rears to max and the fronts up to a bearable rebound setting on the road it rolled so much. They need stiffer compression and less rebound front and rear

 

[frayz]

My asts came with 70/70 before I went 90/110, had to turn up the rears to max and the fronts up to a bearable rebound setting on the road it rolled so much. They need stiffer compression and less rebound front and rear

Sounds like somethings a miss there Zach unless somethings significantly changed.
I'm using R888s on the road so hardly lacking in grip and i don't have anywhere near the Citroen CV type roll you're claiming.
I get weight transfer yes, but bodyroll, not really. Yes id want stiffer if racing on a circuit, but 95% of us are not.

 

[Kev@KAM]

9kg/mm, LOL. That’s what they offer for their ‘race’ spring on my Volvo which puts 900kg on the front axle lol. Frayz’ suggestion is 7kg/mm which is a road spring for mine, you probably want to go even softer, probably a 6kg up front, but a 7 kilo spring shouldn’t be too bad.

The spring rate will be dependant on geometry of the suspension. One car on a 9kg spring will be soft - another extremely hard.
With the Clio we only recommend the 9kg front spring for track cars. 7kg or less for road.

 

[Kev@KAM]

My asts came with 70/70 before I went 90/110, had to turn up the rears to max and the fronts up to a bearable rebound setting on the road it rolled so much. They need stiffer compression and less rebound front and rear

AST I think used to have default damper settings and change the spring. I dont know whether the internals are now custom made for a spring rate. I was told thats why a set of AST is cheaper than a set of Intrax - which are all made custom to order.
Things may have changed over the last few years though as AST pricing has increased maybe its to compensate for more custom work.

 

[Usr117063]

Sounds like somethings a miss there Zach unless somethings significantly changed.
I'm using R888s on the road so hardly lacking in grip and i don't have anywhere near the Citroen CV type roll you're claiming.
I get weight transfer yes, but bodyroll, not really. Yes id want stiffer if racing on a circuit, but 95% of us are not.

That was with 70/70. In terms of something a miss, yeah, everything is fucked 😩

 

[frayz]

AST I think used to have default damper settings and change the spring. I dont know whether the internals are now custom made for a spring rate. I was told thats why a set of AST is cheaper than a set of Intrax - which are all made custom to order.
Things may have changed over the last few years though as AST pricing has increased maybe its to compensate for more custom work.

When i ordered mine from AST just before Christmas they told me they were specifically valved for the spring rates and i could go up or down on the spring rates by a small amount before they would need re-valving.
I had a set of Intrax on my Mini GP1 which i really didn't rate or get on with, i swapped them for some Bilstein PSS10s which were much better.

 

[Usr117063]

AST I think used to have default damper settings and change the spring. I dont know whether the internals are now custom made for a spring rate. I was told thats why a set of AST is cheaper than a set of Intrax - which are all made custom to order.
Things may have changed over the last few years though as AST pricing has increased maybe its to compensate for more custom work.

I would assume these were an older pair as I got them used a while ago, they came with the spacers on the rear to make up for the short spring length. Since got the right lengths and the rears were fully serviced for the new springs. Fronts kinda need a service but nothing adverse is happening to the handling in that area so will send them off in a bit.

 

[Kev@KAM]

Well I guess thats why the older ones were sold for £1400 vs £2k today. Custom costs extra time and therefore money

 

[Usr117063]

Whats the custom part? Valving or other things too?

 

[Kev@KAM]

The internal valving is the only thing other than the spring