Oh absolutely but I can’t see the motion ratio being too different up front seeing as the strut goes right down to the hub.
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My quest for the perfect fast-road suspension setup
- Thread starter plenty
- Start date
Oh absolutely but I can’t see the motion ratio being too different up front seeing as the strut goes right down to the hub.
Brigsy
ClioSport Club Member
T.Turbo
Another vote for fresh cup shocks, and eibach sportlines if only fast road use. Accept a little bit of bodyroll and it all works lovely, and will generally outlast any coilover setup with very little maintenance.
Could sell the coilovers and get a good return.
Could sell the coilovers and get a good return.
Clio 172 Cup
Agreed.
For my road Cup I run standard OEM cup dampers all round with Eibach springs and Pure solid top mounts on the front (standard rubber mounts on the back).
I also have a rear ARB
The top mounts can be a bit crashy on rough surfaces (I live in the sticks) but generally the set up works really well.
Turn in feels sharp. It does have a bit of roll but I don’t mind that in a road car.
Best of all the whole set up was half the price of a set of decent coilovers.
If you do want to sell your coilovers- send me a PMS as I need a set for my race car.
Lovely looking car by the way.
plenty
ClioSport Club Member
Thanks chaps. If I still don't get along with the softened BCs, my next port of call will be solid top mounts and camber bolts with OEM struts. I'm convinced I need camber to get the turn-in response I'm looking for.
Anyone have experience with Mark Arter or Compbrake top mounts?
Anyone have experience with Mark Arter or Compbrake top mounts?
About a hundred things going on in this thread 
I reckon the answer is staring us in the face. It's a sporty biased road car. Primary ride down a fast B road with corners whilst still having to adhere to the essentials (ground clearance for speed bumps, rear spring stiff enough to cope with rear passengers & boot full of shopping) is literally what it would have been tuned for.
Given that the OP specifically said no track days and wants better primary ride the answer has got to be OEM-ish numbers (travel, ride height, slightly firmer springs) but with higher quality dampers (likely to be more consistent & less compromised over impacts etc) and specifically some adjustable rears (to be able to find the desired pitch behaviour for your chosen road/speed/lack of luggage). Of course you're going to want to go a bit stiffer than OEM to reduce roll, but that can be done with a modest and balanced front/rear increase and/or by dialling on a bit more damping.
In lieu of many options to significantly increase rear roll stiffness the proper way (ARBs) the vast majority of coilover kits hugely increase the rear spring stiffness as a bodged way of improving handling. This goes directly against everything related to controlling vertical movement the body, in particular pitch balance, or contact patch over bumps but it doesn't matter because they're sold to be better at cornering and they are. Even cooksport rears on my old 182 were noticeably harsher over impacts & introduced resonance on those carriageways/motorways made up of small concrete sections glued together.
A Volvo's going to be much heavier over the front end though, so even with the same motion ratio a 9kg/mm spring gives you a lower "ride frequency" (one number that describes how soft/firm any spring/vehicle combination "feels"). The equation has a square root in it too, so doubling the weight = car feels 4 times softer not 2 times softer.
Revalving dampers for different spring rates is an impossible topic without a retailer/manufacturer being very open & honest IMO. They won't have done much if any development in the first place, just a best-guess for a 1000kg FWD hatch then given to a friend of a friend to test on their race car. And then it's not just one number like the rate of a spring, dampers have a curve with an infinite number of possibilities. And then different technologies (monotube, twintube etc) have different ranges of adjustment. And then on top of it all there's no single right answer, so even if you gave an identical damper to AST & BC and told them to revalve it for a 9kg/mm spring, they'll still give you two different curves.
I reckon the answer is staring us in the face. It's a sporty biased road car. Primary ride down a fast B road with corners whilst still having to adhere to the essentials (ground clearance for speed bumps, rear spring stiff enough to cope with rear passengers & boot full of shopping) is literally what it would have been tuned for.
Given that the OP specifically said no track days and wants better primary ride the answer has got to be OEM-ish numbers (travel, ride height, slightly firmer springs) but with higher quality dampers (likely to be more consistent & less compromised over impacts etc) and specifically some adjustable rears (to be able to find the desired pitch behaviour for your chosen road/speed/lack of luggage). Of course you're going to want to go a bit stiffer than OEM to reduce roll, but that can be done with a modest and balanced front/rear increase and/or by dialling on a bit more damping.
In lieu of many options to significantly increase rear roll stiffness the proper way (ARBs) the vast majority of coilover kits hugely increase the rear spring stiffness as a bodged way of improving handling. This goes directly against everything related to controlling vertical movement the body, in particular pitch balance, or contact patch over bumps but it doesn't matter because they're sold to be better at cornering and they are. Even cooksport rears on my old 182 were noticeably harsher over impacts & introduced resonance on those carriageways/motorways made up of small concrete sections glued together.
A Volvo's going to be much heavier over the front end though, so even with the same motion ratio a 9kg/mm spring gives you a lower "ride frequency" (one number that describes how soft/firm any spring/vehicle combination "feels"). The equation has a square root in it too, so doubling the weight = car feels 4 times softer not 2 times softer.
Revalving dampers for different spring rates is an impossible topic without a retailer/manufacturer being very open & honest IMO. They won't have done much if any development in the first place, just a best-guess for a 1000kg FWD hatch then given to a friend of a friend to test on their race car. And then it's not just one number like the rate of a spring, dampers have a curve with an infinite number of possibilities. And then different technologies (monotube, twintube etc) have different ranges of adjustment. And then on top of it all there's no single right answer, so even if you gave an identical damper to AST & BC and told them to revalve it for a 9kg/mm spring, they'll still give you two different curves.
plenty
ClioSport Club Member
Steven thanks - you have further validated my conclusion that I need to keep the softer rear spring rate and ditch the coilover rears. So then it's a matter of sorting the turn-in and, if possible, reducing body roll. 7 kg/mm BC springs plus OEM Cup springs (higher roll centre than the H+R items) both incoming for further experimentation.
I know. We are essentially making the same point. 9kg/mm is way too stiff.
Jekyll
ClioSport Club Member
Just chucking it out there....
What about Koni shocks? The rears are damping adjustable and you get to keep the springs of your choice. You can buy fronts but only in 54mm, which isn't a option on your 60mm 182 hubs.
What about Koni shocks? The rears are damping adjustable and you get to keep the springs of your choice. You can buy fronts but only in 54mm, which isn't a option on your 60mm 182 hubs.
Very unfortunate and annoying that we've no idea what rate the H&Rs are (or any of the lowering springs to be honest). I've no doubt that the 7kg/mm combination could very well give the illusion of better turn in due to less roll but 7kg/mm is still quite stiff so it seems unlikely that this won't add understeer even if you don't feel it.
Long term I would still go with a coilover rear as I think you'll want the adjustable damping to help balance pitch and possibly want the option of increasing the rear spring rate a little to aid turn in. That said some turn in can be regained with toe. Worth checking that the RARB is actually set to firm?
Long term I would still go with a coilover rear as I think you'll want the adjustable damping to help balance pitch and possibly want the option of increasing the rear spring rate a little to aid turn in. That said some turn in can be regained with toe. Worth checking that the RARB is actually set to firm?
plenty
ClioSport Club Member
Once I try the Renault Cup springs I'll have a basis for comparison, but my bum dyno suggests the H+R springs are in OEM territory being fairly soft and imparting a ride quality which is what I would expect OEM to feel like.
I've the rear arb on the softer setting, but I believe the turn-in issues are coming from the front end going from solid to rubber mounts and from max camber on the BCs to standard camber on OEM struts.
If I needed rear damping adjustment I'd try Konis before going to another rear coilover, if for no other reason than it's cheaper. I would add that I've had adjustables before on other cars and never actually used the adjustment - generally found the middle settings satisfactory and left it at that. I've always been less sensitive to damping changes and more sensitive to spring rates. I appreciate the two things go hand in hand of course.
I've the rear arb on the softer setting, but I believe the turn-in issues are coming from the front end going from solid to rubber mounts and from max camber on the BCs to standard camber on OEM struts.
If I needed rear damping adjustment I'd try Konis before going to another rear coilover, if for no other reason than it's cheaper. I would add that I've had adjustables before on other cars and never actually used the adjustment - generally found the middle settings satisfactory and left it at that. I've always been less sensitive to damping changes and more sensitive to spring rates. I appreciate the two things go hand in hand of course.
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Jekyll
ClioSport Club Member
I was under the impression the H&R's were quite stiff. This is from reading what users have said, not from personal opinion I might add.
Kev@KAM
ClioSport Trader
Badass Toyota
I think it more applies to the Clio 3 and some of the other Renaultsport models.
100 per unit not inc vat for service, just a valve is a bit cheaper but I would get them serviced. What it was for me when I had them sent off. Could be at least 380 judging on those prices (with new springs) and thats not including if anything else is needed for the service. It depends if you want the perfect fast road setup then youl 100% want coilovers but for the price of just the rears you could get f+r cup dampers and springs..
plenty
ClioSport Club Member
Almost too hot outside in the sunshine to work on cars, but managed to get the front struts off and the BCs back on now with 7 kg/mm springs.
Along the way I discovered a nice tear in the driver's side driveshaft. A bit of reading up on Cliosport.net reveals that this is a common problem and a pretty shocking bit of design from Renault. The tear is on the inner not the outer fold of the bellows, and I suspect what has happened is that the CV boot expands at speed due to the air trapped inside, which then catches the rear of the block.
Replacement driveshaft incoming. Going to try a trick a friend recommended of inserting a red WD40 straw into the CV boot as a breather to stop the ballooning. However I was eager to get the car back together for a test drive, so put a bit of superglue on the tear as an interim measure.
This photo shows how close the OS shaft is to the block.
Anyway back on the road for now, and out of the smoke for a drive in the blazing Bank Holiday sunshine. Immediately I could feel that the sharpness of the front end had returned. The combo of solid top mounts and extra camber is clearly what suits me on the Clio 182 platform.
Rather gratifyingly the ride quality although not quite as compliant as on the OEM front struts and rubber top mounts is far better than when using the 450lbs AST coilover rears. So it appears Bilstein's approach of using a harder front and softer rear is just the ticket for the road.
Unfortunately my test drive was cut short due to a clunking noise from the rear which I am fairly sure is one of the 18mm bolts holding the damper to the hub coming loose. So I'll need to redo those with a dab of threadlock. I'll take the opportunity to adjust the ride height on the front as well, which is currently set the same as at the rear - conventional wisdom recommends a 10mm lower ride height at front for a bit of rake, so I'll do that.
I'll reserve judgement until more seat time has been achieved, but first impressions of the coilover front + standard Cup damper with lowering spring rear combo are very positive. I certainly don't see myself going back to coilover rears. Other than the hard ride, the thin-looking turrets where the rear top mounts locate were designed to take a damper, not a spring. I can foresee them breaking under the stress of a stiff coilover.
Along the way I discovered a nice tear in the driver's side driveshaft. A bit of reading up on Cliosport.net reveals that this is a common problem and a pretty shocking bit of design from Renault. The tear is on the inner not the outer fold of the bellows, and I suspect what has happened is that the CV boot expands at speed due to the air trapped inside, which then catches the rear of the block.
Replacement driveshaft incoming. Going to try a trick a friend recommended of inserting a red WD40 straw into the CV boot as a breather to stop the ballooning. However I was eager to get the car back together for a test drive, so put a bit of superglue on the tear as an interim measure.
This photo shows how close the OS shaft is to the block.
Anyway back on the road for now, and out of the smoke for a drive in the blazing Bank Holiday sunshine. Immediately I could feel that the sharpness of the front end had returned. The combo of solid top mounts and extra camber is clearly what suits me on the Clio 182 platform.
Rather gratifyingly the ride quality although not quite as compliant as on the OEM front struts and rubber top mounts is far better than when using the 450lbs AST coilover rears. So it appears Bilstein's approach of using a harder front and softer rear is just the ticket for the road.
Unfortunately my test drive was cut short due to a clunking noise from the rear which I am fairly sure is one of the 18mm bolts holding the damper to the hub coming loose. So I'll need to redo those with a dab of threadlock. I'll take the opportunity to adjust the ride height on the front as well, which is currently set the same as at the rear - conventional wisdom recommends a 10mm lower ride height at front for a bit of rake, so I'll do that.
I'll reserve judgement until more seat time has been achieved, but first impressions of the coilover front + standard Cup damper with lowering spring rear combo are very positive. I certainly don't see myself going back to coilover rears. Other than the hard ride, the thin-looking turrets where the rear top mounts locate were designed to take a damper, not a spring. I can foresee them breaking under the stress of a stiff coilover.
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Simon@ASTUK
ClioSport Trader
BMW E30 M3
For any questions about AST, please tag or ask me! Some truths and some non truths and total guess work going on here! Let's see if i can be of help.
We valve for the car, we also have spring rates that we recommend. We will however supply whatever the customer requires (within reason). So, when it comes to used buys you are getting what someone else requested. Thats not necessarily what you may require. We also re-valve and re-spring in life so "a set of AST's" can really be anything. As these are straight linear springs, customers can buy them easily and swap them as they see fit in any rate/length etc.
We can make a road going set usually 60n/40n (342lb/228lb). However seldom people go for this. This will, on track produce understeer. As most sets we sell are predominantly going on track we see customers go for the 80n all round (456lb). This gives the car a bit more over steer. We don't often see people wanting to go stiffer on the front, but we have had lots of requests to go stiffer on the rear. 80n/110n 456/627lb seemed very popular for a while.
Don't forget we are operating a true coilover rear. Most companies supply a non coilover rear. While the springs independently when bounced will produce the same results. When on the car in these 2 different positions will feel different.
Overall we try to understand and ask people what they are doing with the car and try to understand how much track work people are going to do and recommend accordingly. We are happy to change that in life for people. Service is £100+VAT and a revalve £65+VAT per damper.
The pricing change for AST suspension has been to do with material cost, labour cost (we don't assemble cheap parts in cheap locations. Everything is done in Holland) and the exchange rate. Dropping from 5 years ago 1.4 down to 1.1 is approx 25% increase in the price! We have actually absorbed a lot of the cost of the customisations of setups for customers.
Sorry if this comes across badly, often responding to lots of points looks that way, just trying to be helpful!
We valve for the car, we also have spring rates that we recommend. We will however supply whatever the customer requires (within reason). So, when it comes to used buys you are getting what someone else requested. Thats not necessarily what you may require. We also re-valve and re-spring in life so "a set of AST's" can really be anything. As these are straight linear springs, customers can buy them easily and swap them as they see fit in any rate/length etc.
We can make a road going set usually 60n/40n (342lb/228lb). However seldom people go for this. This will, on track produce understeer. As most sets we sell are predominantly going on track we see customers go for the 80n all round (456lb). This gives the car a bit more over steer. We don't often see people wanting to go stiffer on the front, but we have had lots of requests to go stiffer on the rear. 80n/110n 456/627lb seemed very popular for a while.
Don't forget we are operating a true coilover rear. Most companies supply a non coilover rear. While the springs independently when bounced will produce the same results. When on the car in these 2 different positions will feel different.
Overall we try to understand and ask people what they are doing with the car and try to understand how much track work people are going to do and recommend accordingly. We are happy to change that in life for people. Service is £100+VAT and a revalve £65+VAT per damper.
The pricing change for AST suspension has been to do with material cost, labour cost (we don't assemble cheap parts in cheap locations. Everything is done in Holland) and the exchange rate. Dropping from 5 years ago 1.4 down to 1.1 is approx 25% increase in the price! We have actually absorbed a lot of the cost of the customisations of setups for customers.
Sorry if this comes across badly, often responding to lots of points looks that way, just trying to be helpful!
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gambit
ClioSport Club Member
182 Trophy
@Simon@AST
Running Fronts 300lb or 5.36kg/mm or 53nm/mm and Rear 400lb or 7.14kg/mm or 70nm/mm Car feels like the rear skips nervously/sharply over rough surfaces on B roads only through corners and front feels like understeer mid corner when thrown in quickly with PMS ARB set to soft , dampers set to 3clicks away from hard front and rear what would you recommend?
Running Fronts 300lb or 5.36kg/mm or 53nm/mm and Rear 400lb or 7.14kg/mm or 70nm/mm Car feels like the rear skips nervously/sharply over rough surfaces on B roads only through corners and front feels like understeer mid corner when thrown in quickly with PMS ARB set to soft , dampers set to 3clicks away from hard front and rear what would you recommend?
Simon@ASTUK
ClioSport Trader
BMW E30 M3
Firstly, you have adjustable dampers. They are designed to be adjusted for the conditions. If you are spending your time on bumpy roads turn your dampers down, it costs nothing and you may be surprised by your results. Get the most from your dampers!
Secondly once you have lowered the rebound try removing your anti roll bar, it's an age old debate but it's about how YOU feel about your car.
The springs you have on the rear going to be stiff for the road, try them with the softer damping. It's always a compromise for road and track driving, and the level of track driving being done. If you are on track, the street spring rate usually isn't enough, that said you will hear lots of people tell you how good lowering springs are on track. Then if you are quite aggressive running the red and whites etc and or entering club racing etc, then the rear up around 70/80/90 will be better. So if you are serious on track and drive your car as a daily, you really have to establish where your compromise will be.
It's overall about your feel. you can read on here and all over that people are running 90n on the road and love it. W have a lot of customers running an 80n all round setup which works well on track, stiff for the road, but the road use is a percentage is far lower. It's personal taste.
Simon @ AST Suspension UK
Simon@ASTUK
ClioSport Trader
BMW E30 M3
No justification needed buddy, there will be someone looking to track drive and your dampers will be great for that.
Simon @ AST Suspension UK
plenty
ClioSport Club Member
A trip to AW Motorworks (highly recommended!) has flagged that my car has been fitted with the earlier (low caster) design of wishbones, probably pattern parts. And the wishbone bushes are well past their best. Makes sense given the vagueness I've been feeling on turn-in, and also the car veers slightly under braking.
Briefly considered Powerflex but as I need new wishbones anyway I'd might as well get new ball joints and order the whole caboodle of OEM parts.
Meanwhile though, time for a runout with a few mates on Sunday morning during a gap between rain showers. Wow! I am now properly dialled into this car. Running 7 kg/mm BCs up front with adjustment set in the middle, Cup dampers and H+R springs at the back with the rear arb set on the softer setting, the car felt spot on. I'm not a fan of a mobile rear on the road and the back wheels remained resolutely planted, but there was no understeer at all. Totally neutral handling and compliant enough to deal with some of the very poor road surfaces we have in this country. Despite running AD08RS (notably harder and less sticky than AD08R) there was no lack of grip even on damp sections and the car felt totally confidence-inspiring.
Being chased by a 991 GT3 will certainly keep you honest but the Clio held its own and indeed had more pace to give. With more wheel time I will be able to get more out of the car. The two yellow cars must have made for quite a sight in convoy.
Can't wait to get new parts on and see how it drives.
Briefly considered Powerflex but as I need new wishbones anyway I'd might as well get new ball joints and order the whole caboodle of OEM parts.
Meanwhile though, time for a runout with a few mates on Sunday morning during a gap between rain showers. Wow! I am now properly dialled into this car. Running 7 kg/mm BCs up front with adjustment set in the middle, Cup dampers and H+R springs at the back with the rear arb set on the softer setting, the car felt spot on. I'm not a fan of a mobile rear on the road and the back wheels remained resolutely planted, but there was no understeer at all. Totally neutral handling and compliant enough to deal with some of the very poor road surfaces we have in this country. Despite running AD08RS (notably harder and less sticky than AD08R) there was no lack of grip even on damp sections and the car felt totally confidence-inspiring.
Being chased by a 991 GT3 will certainly keep you honest but the Clio held its own and indeed had more pace to give. With more wheel time I will be able to get more out of the car. The two yellow cars must have made for quite a sight in convoy.
Can't wait to get new parts on and see how it drives.
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plenty
ClioSport Club Member
Some more retail therapy thanks to RPD, and another visit to AW Motorworks, New radiator and AC condenser/dryer fitted. New OEM wishbones and ball joints and inner/outer track rod ends, Powerflex purple ARB bushes and new ARB clamps, and my suspension refresh is complete.
Following Alex's recommendation I drove straight from his workshop to Tyre Smart in Witham for an alignment. With the BC top mounts rotated to maximum caster these are my settings:
The drive home felt very good but in Friday-afternoon traffic and with parts in the boot I wasn't inclined to push.
I didn't have long to wait however. Another sunny Sunday morning means another drive out with a few friends.
100 miles across Herts and Essex on my new suspension and I am happy to declare job done.
I can honestly say now this is one of the best-handling cars I've driven, and I've been driving for 31 years. In fact I think I prefer it to my R26.R which can get a bit twitchy at the rear when entering corners on a trailing throttle. Some people like a mobile rear end - I don't, not on the road at least.
The poise is resolutely neutral - the front refuses to let go and yet the rear with relatively soft springs and the Whiteline ARB on soft is also absolutely planted and poor road surfaces are dismissed with ease. With 7 kg/mm front springs and adjusters set to the middle, body roll is well contained. For my tastes the firmer front/softer rear combo is 100% bang on.
It is such a confidence-inspiring car. Through all stages of the corner the car is with you - it never threatens to bite or do anything unexpected, but it eggs you on and invites you to push harder. Coming from much faster cars the Clio is making me a better driver as I learn to carry much more speed and conserve momentum rather than relying on grunt to make progress.
The new suspension isn't a night and day difference, suggesting that my old parts weren't completely shagged. The most noticeable benefit was the squirm under braking has disappeared, making corner entry a much more composed experience. In fact the chassis could easily handle more power. Must resist turbo conversion!
The steering is still too low-geared and a little too vague around the straight-ahead for my liking. And an LSD would be nice. But that's about it for drawbacks. What a car.
Following Alex's recommendation I drove straight from his workshop to Tyre Smart in Witham for an alignment. With the BC top mounts rotated to maximum caster these are my settings:
The drive home felt very good but in Friday-afternoon traffic and with parts in the boot I wasn't inclined to push.
I didn't have long to wait however. Another sunny Sunday morning means another drive out with a few friends.
100 miles across Herts and Essex on my new suspension and I am happy to declare job done.
I can honestly say now this is one of the best-handling cars I've driven, and I've been driving for 31 years. In fact I think I prefer it to my R26.R which can get a bit twitchy at the rear when entering corners on a trailing throttle. Some people like a mobile rear end - I don't, not on the road at least.
The poise is resolutely neutral - the front refuses to let go and yet the rear with relatively soft springs and the Whiteline ARB on soft is also absolutely planted and poor road surfaces are dismissed with ease. With 7 kg/mm front springs and adjusters set to the middle, body roll is well contained. For my tastes the firmer front/softer rear combo is 100% bang on.
It is such a confidence-inspiring car. Through all stages of the corner the car is with you - it never threatens to bite or do anything unexpected, but it eggs you on and invites you to push harder. Coming from much faster cars the Clio is making me a better driver as I learn to carry much more speed and conserve momentum rather than relying on grunt to make progress.
The new suspension isn't a night and day difference, suggesting that my old parts weren't completely shagged. The most noticeable benefit was the squirm under braking has disappeared, making corner entry a much more composed experience. In fact the chassis could easily handle more power. Must resist turbo conversion!
The steering is still too low-geared and a little too vague around the straight-ahead for my liking. And an LSD would be nice. But that's about it for drawbacks. What a car.
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Jekyll
ClioSport Club Member
Alex is fantastic. I walkways value his opinion and most of the time, take it on board. (When I dont, its more because I'm fussy and its normally aesthetics!)
Are you local to Harlow? I see the retail park you've taken a picture of there and of course Alex in dunmow, Tyre Smart in Witham.
Are you local to Harlow? I see the retail park you've taken a picture of there and of course Alex in dunmow, Tyre Smart in Witham.
Jekyll
ClioSport Club Member
Ah ok, only up the m11 👍
Yeah, essex does have some awesome roads.
Yeah, essex does have some awesome roads.
frayz
ClioSport Club Member
Great to hear you happy with the car and it’s setup now. As said, Alex is superb. 👌🏼
@plenty Great stuff. What you said 'it never threatens to bite or do anything unexpected, but it eggs you on and invites you to push harder' Is pretty much how I could I sum mine up and its a completely different setup! When they have the right parts they go very well, some trial and error as its personal opinion at the end of the day.
"The steering is still too low-geared and a little too vague around the straight-ahead for my liking"
My biggest fight with this car.. I have had 2 quick racks now, I would never drive one without it. And that straight ahead vagueness again was a problem for me for years. I now have solid nylon rack bushes as teh powerflex ones started to flex, also if you go epas you get teh solid lower uj rather than the bushed one on manual rack, which also makes a big difference. You can fit that lower uj onto a manual rack, I used a twingo which was straight fit.
"The steering is still too low-geared and a little too vague around the straight-ahead for my liking"
My biggest fight with this car.. I have had 2 quick racks now, I would never drive one without it. And that straight ahead vagueness again was a problem for me for years. I now have solid nylon rack bushes as teh powerflex ones started to flex, also if you go epas you get teh solid lower uj rather than the bushed one on manual rack, which also makes a big difference. You can fit that lower uj onto a manual rack, I used a twingo which was straight fit.
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