New versus old. Continued.

[Clio V6 2004]

I didnt want to soak up what the Williams is about though! I wanted to know how fast it is and how well it handled and braked!

The thread was not just about these two cars, either. Read the title again.

NEW VERSUS OLD.

New cars, say 2002 onwards, versus old cars, 1982-1994, say.

Not just the Williams versus modern. That distorts the point. Because the Williams does get close, uniquely, among older cars.

Finally, having been a road tester, I quickly get the feel and get the performance of a car logged. I soon know what a car can and cannot do, my racing experience also helping, I suppose.

 

[Clio V6 2004]

Quote: Originally posted by Clio V6 2004 on 16 July 2004


It went off topic, like the moderator said.

Here is a chance to continue the conversation, about modern technology versus old character, or whatever fans of old cars think they do best.

OLD against NEW in general.

Forget the Williams for a while. It does get close to a 182, but misses out mainly on power, performance and equipment.

 

[TheJesus]

How convenient that someone lent you a Williams for the day, that was nice of them .

The other day I was sat down thinking to myself, I wonder what the best hot hatch is of all time. Now having driven 10000000 miles and owned and driven over 30000 cars my opinion was not just this, but FACT. So, going back to me driving over 10000000 miles and owning over 30000 cars, of which now compromised of all the sport Clio variants I thought I would put them through their paces in a shootout.

1st up....

172 vs Delphino Ferroce - well it was close, but the Delphino just took the spoils with the year of manufacture reading 2 years newer.

Next...

182 vs 172 Cup - although some idiots found that the 172 Cup actually went round a track quicker and was faster to 100mph and a generally more fun and involving drive my 10000000 miles of experience gave the accolades to the 182... it was close and although the 172 Cup won in all our tests the paint just wasnt shiny enough for our scientific tests. 182 wins

Clio V6 Mk2 vs Porsche 911 Turbo (993) - well, this was a close one. Despite the Porsche winning on all tests it just wasnt new enough to compete... this actually made it lap slower on some track tests (well, after some artistic license).

Now some may argue that these cars are all completely different, but this is a lie, all cars were selected in the colour red.

Tune in next week as we find out why chalk is better than cheese... by the way, did I mention that I have tasted over 18000 different cheeses and by virtue of this opinion is now fact? well it is

 

[TheJesus]

^cant deny my flawless logic!

 

[Mark@Ritchspeed]

I think a job awaits you on one of the top Motoring mags . LOL .

 

[TheJesus]

lol, dunno m8, think theres a few on here whos creative skills are vastly superior to mine .

 

[Dash]

It was a chilly Autumn morning. As I peeked through the shabby curtains of our bed and beakfast. There she stood in all he glory. Those gold wheels were gleaming and beckoning me to......













Ok only joking

 

[u33db]

Forgive me for labouring this point a little but this topic is about "newer being better" yet in the williams case you just wanted to see "how fast it is and how well it handled and braked". Now, to my thinking, but if youre going to label something as better you surely have to take account of everything, the entire package...soak up what the car is really about as it were. Had you actually done this, there is no way you could make such as sweeping statement as the 182 is better than the williams. As many people have said (amonst other things), the williams is one of the best handling hatches of all time - while the 182 has a lot of its own recommendations (and it does), this statement is does not appear among them so how can it definatively be "better"?

Point is, most of the time, better is just someones opinion and cant definatively be quantified. Life is a compromise...to be better in one area you loose something from another - this is always the case and also the reason why the willy vs 182 arguement exists; yes the 182 is faster etc but its lost something compared to its earlier counterpart....




[Edited by u33db on 19 July 2004 at 1:36pm]

 

[182 sport]

get over it pal.your wrong.the only thing its lost is the Barry boy image dated looks, dated interior lets cut this short ------------->dated car.

 

[TheJesus]

sorry but in my 10000000 miles of driving older is better, this is FACT. Ive driven 30000 cars (did you know that?) and got some T-Shirt or other (dunno what significance it makes) to make me right. My factual theory is based upon my 10000000 miles of day dreaming... sorry driving.

Heres some more random car comparisons in completely different car classes to prove me right:

Ford Escort Cosworth vs Ford Ka - old wins

Civic Jordon vs Brand new mountain bike - old wins

Clio 182 vs AC Cobra - old wins

an in a revolutionary new article we also decided to test the NEW Clio 192 against and old Harrier jump jet. Well, we couldnt believe it, the harrier could fly higher and at greater speed, the newer paint had us all fooled into thinking it would make the car better, surely a warranty makes a car faster too? Alas this was not the case... back to the drawing board...

Last comparison - Renault GTA vs Clio V6 Mk2 - old wins

 

[u33db]

Well, i dont know what you mean by barry boy image as ive certainly seen quite a few piked up 172 kicking about...even one with gold wheels and trim -> he obviously wanted a williams i think!

Again everyones entitled to their opinion....if its misguided enough to beleive that the 182 is superior in every way then i wont try and stop you. I do think its a shame that you cant see the positives and negatives of both cars though.....

 

[TheJesus]

Quote: Originally posted by 182 sport on 19 July 2004

get over it pal.your wrong.the only thing its lost is the Barry boy image dated looks, dated interior lets cut this short ------------->dated car.

somebodies clutching at straws... but great point none the less, very articulate and well put . "The only thing its lost is the Barry boy image dated looks, dated interior lets cut this short ------------->dated car." Does this mean its now a new car then with better interior than it had when it first came out even though its the same??? im confused!

 

[ricjax99]

There are too many ways to look at it you cant generalise the arguement unless you define a set of rules which define one as better than the other, at the end of the day its personal preference and opinions that fuel the arguement. There will always be opposing views and there will always be some pillock quoting book figures even tho theres a 10yr difference between the timing equipment not just the cars.
If new clios are better than clios and the arguements based on opinions fuel it im afraid the clio williams wins, this is the views of 546 clio enthusiasts, if you havent voted vote, but as it stands, fighting the newer clio is better than older clio arguement is a battle already lost.
<A target=_blank href= "http://www.cliosport.net/Polls/weekly_poll.asp?ID=10http://www.cliosport.net/Polls/weekly_poll.asp?ID=10
Poll
<A target=_blank href= "http://www.webwizguide.info/











In your opinion what is the best clio ever made?



Clio Williams 1/2/3


30%

Clio 172 Mk1


10%

Clio 172 Mk2


14%

Clio 182


16%

Clio v6 Mk1


4%

Clio v6 Mk2 255


26%Total Votes: 546

Nuff said, end of, talk to the hand!


[Edited by ricjax99 on 19 July 2004 at 2:18pm]

 

[TheJesus]

is that one of those Homer Simpson "in your face moments!"? lol


no surprise that the "Ultimate Clio" comes out tops

 

[182 sport]

Your basically admiting defeat.Nice one

 

[ricjax99]

182 sport try re-reading my post, if you still struggle try this mate:

http://www.dyslexic.com/database/articles/11steps.htmlhttp://www.dyslexic.com/database/articles/11steps.html

 

[TheJesus]

Quote: Originally posted by 182 sport on 19 July 2004

Your basically admiting defeat.Nice one

spurious to say the least...

defeat to what exactly, your mighty intellect and reasoning skills? PMSL

 

[Dash]

So 70% of people prefer a modern style Clio.

 

[Clio V6 2004]

The Jesus, you can be as silly as you like, but experience has told me that every modern car I have owned has shown itself to me to be better than older versions. Attempt to belittle that all you may, it changes nothing. It is simply what I have learned by owning and driving.

Manufacturers make their cars better, to keep with the competition and as technolgy progresses, we get better cars, just as we get better tvs and phones and computers.

Youll be telling me that a 15 year old television had more character and so was better than the new one I bought In April next. Dream on. Perhaps you think you are Jesus, you are nowhere near reality, that is for sure.

 

[Clio V6 2004]

Quote: Originally posted by James on 19 July 2004

So 70% of people prefer a modern style Clio.

Exactly.

 

[u33db]

Quote: Originally posted by Clio V6 2004 on 19 July 2004

Quote: Originally posted by James on 19 July 2004

So 70% of people prefer a modern style Clio.

Exactly.

70% of people may prefer a modern style but that doesnt guarantee theyre better cars. No doubt a lot of people are swayed by warranty, the feeling of having a spanking new car on their driveway....

Youll also note from that poll that 30% of people rate the williams to be the best clio ever made compared to 16% for the 182...the 182 is so much better is it??

 

[182 Clio]

I want a pint of whetever The Jesus is on.

I have driven a Williams quite a bit, a friend has one, he has three cars you might call classic and whilst all of them are in great condition and were once king of their class, they are no longer so and he realises it.

He has a Williams, a Rover 3.5 V8 SDI and Triumph Vitesse 2 litre.

All modern equivalents would murder the last two and even though impressive still, the Williams would get killed by a modern hot hatch, such as a Ford Focus RS or Alfa GTA 3.2 or Honda Civic Type R.

Or a 182 !!!

Too low on power and too dated to take on the modern big boys.

 

[182 sport]

Dont know why we started this there was always a clear out come.Anyone used to have a commodore 64? or Amiga? they were class.Hey howabout the mastersytem..... I could play on Wonderboy all day long

 

[182 Clio]

The Jesus will be telling us that 1960s passenger planes were faster and better than the latest stuff, next.

That 1960s trains were faster and better than The Eurostar.

That old motorcycles are faster and better than 2004 ones.

 

[DAVE_RSi]

I had an amiga, still turn it on every now and again 2 play sensible soccer with the old joystick

can score from the half way line everytime!!!!

i prefer old shape clios, just for the looks, although i do like the sport new shape clios

 

[Brooky182]

looking at the last lot of posts and this one im prb not going to make any friends by saying this well here goes.

when i had a load of money through in april i thought great lets get a new car so drove every car and i mean every car new in the £12-13k bracket.

i thought the 182 was the best in my eyes by far it had the most toys, was the most fun to drive cos u can thrash the guts out of it an still feel safe.

so if you like new cars i think the 182 is the best of both worlds ( comparing 172 and cup)

but i drove my mates standard williams the other day and loved it i really did u feel the speed and the g force around the corners so much that u feel like u are going faster. in fact i loved it that much i now am going to prob save up and get one as a second car.

as for all the stuff about which is quicker we went up to breacon on the roads that they film alot of the top gear tests in, with both fast and slow bends and straights and i just had the edge. i know u are all going to say that the driver makes the difference but to prove this we then swapped cars and it was the same.

the point im trying to make is and sorry it took me a long time to get there i think the diff cars suit diff driving tastes so lets just agree to dis agree on this one i think and just concentrate on beating all the other slower cars on the raos both old and new

 

[182 Clio]

Does anyone know how I can lose 32 bhp off my Clio 182 please?

You see, Jesus tells me it will be a better car with 18% less power.

 

[182 Clio]

Some people confuse desirability and rarity, with being better.

Older, rare cars, can be desirable, my step-dad has a very rare and collectable Ford Capri RS 3.1, which many people think is a great car, but when you actually analyse it, a 2004 equivalent would paste its arse from here into the middle of next week.

He used to have a 57 Chevvy, again desirable, but does nothing as good as a modern car. Especially performance and handling.

Even he does not claim that the Capri would be faster or better than, say, a 231 bhp Mazda RX8, a modern coupe.

 

[2 live]

hehe my dad had a 3.1 rs a long time ago......fukkin great car......used to beat the sh*t out of the newer 2.8 injections.....what with the triple 48s...sounded lovely......went like stink..ass out on evry corner....but still beat the newer machinery..... lol

and btw.a 182 jus rolled off the production line....its loads better than yours tho cos its newer.same goes with the v6....a new un off the line willl be better than urs..sell it now or itl get dated n slow before u know it











it already has??



lol

oooooooooooops

 

[Adams_16v]

oh well

 

[TheJesus]

I own 1 of every Clio ever driven in all possible colours, and its a well known fact that they go faster when they are painted blue and given gold wheels .

anyone hear how that 2.0l valver smoked that 182 and all those 182 owners started crying like a bunch of girls?

 

[richy]

Quote: Originally posted by TheJesus on 19 July 2004
anyone hear how that 2.0l valver smoked that 182 and all those 182 owners started crying like a bunch of girls?

haha

 

[182 sport]

Quote: Originally posted by Brooky182 on 19 July 2004




but i drove my mates standard williams the other day and loved it i really did u feel the speed and the g force around the corners so much that u feel like u are going faster. in fact i loved it that much i now am going to prob save up and get one as a second car.

the 172 & 182 pull more G through the corners than a Williams.so much for your c**k & bull story

 

[u33db]

Quote: Originally posted by 182 sport on 19 July 2004

the 172 & 182 pull more G through the corners than a Williams.so much for your c**k & bull story

The man is just expressing his opinion and whys it a c**k and bull story? Ok, the 172/182 probably pull more G through corners but like so many of the other facts that have been quoted, its on the basis that the car is being driven flat out to its very best. Now, having experienced both, id say the williams is easier to drive quicker, point to point, on a "give and take road" (and it should be considering) which would explain comments like this IMO.

Stop slating opinion just because you dont agree with them - this is suppossed to be a civilised discussion isnt it??!!

 

[182 sport]

Quote: Originally posted by u33db on 20 July 2004

Quote: Originally posted by 182 sport on 19 July 2004

the 172 & 182 pull more G through the corners than a Williams.so much for your c**k & bull story

The man is just expressing his opinion and whys it a c**k and bull story? Ok, the 172/182 probably pull more G through corners but like so many of the other facts that have been quoted, its on the basis that the car is being driven flat out to its very best. Now, having experienced both, id say the williams is easier to drive quicker, point to point, on a "give and take road" (and it should be considering) which would explain comments like this IMO.

Stop slating opinion just because you dont agree with them - this is suppossed to be a civilised discussion isnt it??!!







How is the Williams easier to drive quicker?It cant go quicker than a 172/182

 

[FlamingMonkey]

hehe you never give up 182sport, you remind me of someone.......

 

[u33db]

Well given the low profile tyres and quite stiff damping on the 172/182 its not as ideally suited to, lets say, your average country road. However, the williams is as it has a more suitable tyre profile/suspension travel/damping rate so soaks up bumps etc and is far more settled. Most people who lower the cars experience a similar problem - lowering makes the grip better round smoother surfaces but more unsettled on the rough. FACT.

As said, you never seem to give up! I might though as this is getting boring.....

 

[Tucks]

At Trax this year we can see who can pull the most gs round the bends!

 

[TheJesus]

this went crap after the 1st page really... just felt compelled to reply to some of the idiotic posting with equal BS hence the random ramblings above .

Anyone hear about a 11 year old valver beating a 182? Musta been gutting for the 182 cos they beat Enzos!...