Newbie with Clio DCI problems...

[motherhupit]

HI i'm new to the forum and was wondering if any of you could help, I've always had petrol cars myself so not that clued up on diesels, my Girlfriend has a 02 reg Clio 1.5 dci its had ongoing issues ever since we have owned it about 2 years now but have not really caused a problem just been a bit annoying, it shows 3 warning lights on the dash (when going over 80mph or up a very steep hill) and throws the codes up for Glowplug circuit, Fuel Rail Regulator. i've had it looked at and made better in the past with another injector and was told another is on the lower limit of flow so i'm pretty sure its an injector problem...

However the last few weeks its been getting harder to start when engine is warm, it turns over fine, doesn't stutter but just won't fire, its been getting worse and today i thought i would service it and take the TDC sensor out and check it and clean it, put it all back together cleaned and checked all connections, went to start it and nothing, turns over fine but just won't fire...

I went down my friends mot garage got his fault reader thing put it on live mode and checked all sensors, it shows engine RPM of 200 even with cam sensor unplugged when cranking so the TDC must be working ok?????!!!!!, it shows fuel flow at 20mg/c?????!!!!, and a fuel pressure of 126 bar plus all the other sensors looks fine showing correct engine temp, correct ambient temp, throttle pos all good, etc etc.

The only thing that looked a bit strange is that manifold pressure was at 1 bar when not cranking and still at 1 bar when cranking shouldn't it cause a vacuum and drop....

I cleared some fault codes with the scanner and i'm wondering if for some reason it might have cleared the Injector programming off the ecu????? or something else. or possibly the injector pump has gone, i think it had a new fuel filter 2 year and 20k miles ago as the dealer said that was the first thing he did when we complained about the lights on the dash, the car has done 90k miles

Any help would be much appreciated i'm scratching my head.

Thanks a lot... Cheers. seb

 

[Dr HMS Derv Destroyer]

Spray some easy start down the air intake and crank it over foot to the floor and then let go once started , if it continues to idle fine then that's one thing off the list, ( do not continue to use easy start as engines will start to live off it if used to much )

Three lights as in what mate? STOP/ engine symbol with stop inside and electrical EML light in the center?

 

[motherhupit]

Spray some easy start down the air intake and crank it over foot to the floor and then let go once started , if it continues to idle fine then that's one thing off the list, ( do not continue to use easy start as engines will start to live off it if used to much )

Three lights as in what mate? STOP/ engine symbol with stop inside and electrical EML light in the center?

Im pretty sure its STOP, engine with stop in middle and yellow EML mill glow plug light thing. will get some easy start it's just funny how it used to play up when warm as well, now its totally dead, could it be a fuel lock or something will try the easy start tomorrow if i can get hold of some... cheers

 

[Dr HMS Derv Destroyer]

Could be a number of things mate.

As half of the forum will tel you , my DCI is the most stupid one around, engine trouble left right and Center lol.


Lat time I had the trouble your having, my fuel pump let go, randomly cut out on me and wouldn't start. Would only crank over til easy start helped it build up enough pressure to run for a while.

Now if it's your pump gone, two easy ways to find out, cut the fuel filter in half and stick a magnet on it in a tub or bowl, if the magnet picks up metal fillings then the pumps gone, other way to check is take the sender unit out of the fuel tank and shine a torch inside to see if there's any reflective metal parts at the bottom.

Fuel rail pressure sensor can go funny buggers sometimes and Crank sensors tend to play up ( Renault did a revised crank loom to eliminate this problem )

www.cliodci.net will have useful information for you aswell

 

[Owen_m]

If you get it running use a bottle of injector cleaner on it.

If its not firing at all when you crank it, then it's not getting fuel at all. Under the bonnet have a look at the priming pump there should be fuel in clear pipes to it and from if there's not then you've probably got an air leak and fuels gone back to the tank.

The glow plug issue would make it struggle to start on a cold day but it would stop its starting at all so don't worry about that.

Hope his helps.

 

[Owen_m]

Ryan your car makes me laugh.... It must hate you

 

[Dr HMS Derv Destroyer]

Nice one owen . Altho to add to what you said , there can be fuel in the lines but if the pump cannot crank enough pressure to activate the pressure sensor , the ecu won't fire the injectors.

Hopefully you resolve this in no time dude

 

[Dr HMS Derv Destroyer]

Ryan your car makes me laugh.... It must hate you

Its actually proper dead now LOL

 

[Owen_m]

Perhaps it's something to do with your boost pressure because 1bar is 14 psi. Your boost pressure should be 0 or ambient until the turbos making boost.

But then I dunno why the ecu would stop the injectors opening because of that.

Need to get it down to a diesel specialist who does high pressure fuel systems really mate.

Let us know how it goes.


Ryan what's happened with your car now ? looked so smart as well !!!

 

[Dr HMS Derv Destroyer]

I blew the engine up.......... Belt slipped and smashed the conrods to peices. New engine that I haven't ripped apart. Going in soon

Boost won't have anything to do with it, the DCI engine will start up even without a turbo on.

I ment in terms off if the pump can't deliver enough crank pressure the fuel rail pressure sensor won't register enough to tell the ecu to fire up the injectors

 

[Owen_m]

That's sucks bud, 100 engine?


Get what your saying about pressure, I thought it might just been causing a fault which wouldn't let it fuel.

I suppose a bit of investigation is in order for the lad

 

[Dr HMS Derv Destroyer]

Could be, DCI's have to much electrical management systems lol.

Yeah, recon'd DCI 100 engine going in, with my newish 80 injectors and pump. Should be running sweet after that.


OP- report back with your findings , would be good to know

 

[Owen_m]

I thought the 80 pump and injectors were different?

The 100 is better anyways

You doing anything to it performance wise?

Sorry for hi jacking the thread lol

 

[Dr HMS Derv Destroyer]

Yes lol, I have a new pump and a new set of injectors that's why I'm keeping them lol. So basicly it's a DCI 100 bare engine with 80 ancillaries. Will be leaving this engine alone this time around

 

[Owen_m]

Is only going to be putting out 80 then?

100 turbo or 80 turbo?

Boring decat it and map it just don't blow a hole in the block of this one

 

[motherhupit]

Thanks for all the posts, The manifold pressure is fine at 1 bar they normally don't include the atmospheric pressure when they are made so will always see 1 bar but it should have gone below this a bit due to the vacuum caused by the engine etc etc which is what makes me think poss air leak, but saying that the injectors are so close to the engine so it should at least fire even with an air leak..

Hand Prime pump is working ok, there is fuel in all the lines, funny thing is the return pipe always has lots of air bubbles in it when squeezing the primer but i was told that's normal.. as said when cranking the fuel rail pressure goes to 126 bar, the scanner states a fuel rail set of 441 bar??????? so i assume this means that is the minimum running pressure but i would have thought 126 bar of pressure on crank over speed is pretty good. could check the old filter before i get a new ones to see bits of metal etc, is it the pump in the tank or the injector pump that normally goes on them???

As said when cranking the scanner is showing engine speed of 200rpm so it appears the crank sensor is working ok.. will give it some easy start to try and get the revs up enough for the pump to feed enough pressure and monitor the pressure then..

Sorry to be so vague and thanks again

 

[Dr HMS Derv Destroyer]

High pressure pump on the engine usually goes internally putting metal parts all over the fuel system.

Dci's run off a vac feed fuel system. Hp pump gets fed by a low pressure supply then ramps it up to the hp fuel rail.

Itxs just a pick up unit in the tank.

Honestly cannot remember what the rail pressure should show on crank.

Will try find the specs, there somewhere on here

 

[Dr HMS Derv Destroyer]

Is only going to be putting out 80 then?

100 turbo or 80 turbo?

Boring decat it and map it just don't blow a hole in the block of this one

Hybrid turbo, it's a c220 merc turbo decatted already , will get it mapped again after Iv ran it in for a 1000miles. I can't promise about destroying this one tho

 

[motherhupit]

High pressure pump on the engine usually goes internally putting metal parts all over the fuel system.Dci's run off a vac feed fuel system. Hp pump gets fed by a low pressure supply then ramps it up to the hp fuel rail. Itxs just a pick up unit in the tank. Honestly cannot remember what the rail pressure should show on crank. Will try find the specs, there somewhere on here

That would be great thanks...

 

[Sean6545]

Minimum 300bar aprox on start up. Like said, it's a classic injector or high pressure pump breaking up.

 

[motherhupit]

Minimum 300bar aprox on start up. Like said, it's a classic injector or high pressure pump breaking up.

Thanks how would i go about testing / cleaning the pump or injectors, are the injectors a pain to remove etc and can they be cleaned with hot liquids etc... i know you can get them sonically cleaned but i'm trying to get the car working for the week

 

[Dr HMS Derv Destroyer]

Pump needs to be sent off for a proper inspection and clean.

Injectors can be sonically cleaned Altho Iv had a set sent off to be flow jet cleaned about £40 an injector.

Ideally you need to find out which is your problem, if it will fire up then monitor the fuel leak offs from all four injectors ( 4 cup/ bottle method ) usually shows which one or few are on there way out as they will pump out allot more than the others.

Injectors are easy enough to remove, Altho I will advice you put new flame washers on them before refitting!

 

[motherhupit]

OK i got the car running of easy start and flow tested the injectors i'm not really sure how to do it but guessed and i took the return pipe of blocked that and ran a pipe from the return on the injector to a cap of a bottle, i did 1 injector at a time and stopped the engine in-between. i haven't worked out how much the cap holds yet but here are the flows in time for the injectors, i timed how long it took to fill the cap

All read from closest to left hand side...

cold/warm engine

1st 1:50
2nd 1:23
3rd 1:50
4th 4:20

when warm/hot

1st 1:28
2nd 1:16
3rd 1:40
4th 3:60

my measurements aren't going to be 100% accurate but the fuel drips out i would imagine the cap of the bottle holds about 10ml but the 4th injector the one closest to the gearbox is a lot lot slower coming out of the return..

Have i checked it the right way....

 

[Dr HMS Derv Destroyer]

you need all four to do it at the same time, like this video ( gives you the idea ) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9pTdgxk20Y either cups or bottles. if its only a little amoutn then your fine, loads coming out or big differences bettween all four , then you have an injector problem. AND where the leak off line goes onto the return line from the pump, block that off.

does it fire up on its own after switched off?

ie started with easy start. then turned off after a few mins, then started again without easystart?

 

[motherhupit]

you need all four to do it at the same time, like this video ( gives you the idea ) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9pTdgxk20Y either cups or bottles. if its only a little amoutn then your fine, loads coming out or big differences bettween all four , then you have an injector problem. AND where the leak off line goes onto the return line from the pump, block that off.

does it fire up on its own after switched off?

ie started with easy start. then turned off after a few miens, then started again without easystart?

Sometimes it will start without easy start sometimes not, 3 injectors flow the same the 4th flows at half the speed, i basically did what the video did but i did one injector at a time and i blocked of the return pipe so that i didn't get air into the diesel system like he did in the video, could it be loosing pressure through this 4th injector into the engine, it however doesn't smoke much..

Basically 3 injectors take on average of 1min 30 sec to fill a cap and the forth takes an average of 4mins to fill a cap

 

[motherhupit]

Also does anyone know what voltage the injectors open or hold open at

 

[Dr HMS Derv Destroyer]

usually faulty injectors pump out more than they should, if all of them pump out a very small amount then i see no problem. the funny starting, leads me to beleive its the pump letting go,
which in turn needs to be found early to save your fuel system from total contamination.

as for the voltage feed to the injectors , its possibly on a 5v-12v firing pulse. if your planning on trying to diy clean them, DONT. diesel common rail injectors cannot be held open on votage as it will destroy the internal firing mechs.
its ok on some petrol injectors as they are different.

have you posted a help thread on cliodci.net? or speak to micKPM on here, he's good with them

 

[Sean6545]

The best bit of advice I could give you at the moment is to remove the fuel filter, shake it up and drain it via the drain on the bottom into a clear glass.

Let it settle and get a magnet to see if any of the crud is metal.

Let me know what you find.

 

[motherhupit]

Hi thanks, no i haven't posted on cliodci.net thought i would try some more things first, car is starting again at the moment but looks to still be a problem, i took 3 injectors out put into a mixture of redex and white spirit and heated for a while and left over night to soak worth a try i guess, and now put all back together today and flow checked them again, number 4 is the same about 4mins number 2 is the same about 1:20 but number 3 looks to have improved and was showing 2:30 so looks to be flowing more into that cylinder now...

I took the fuel filter of shook lots before and a bit as it emptied into a cap, put a magnet around and prob found about 2 tiny tiny bits that stuck to the magnet among-st a tiny amount of dirt, so basically no metal bits in the fuel filter???

Car is running and starting ok at the moment, going to take it for a run get some red-ex in it, (cant hurt) and see if it can improve, still not guaranteed that the pump isn't on it way out but it does look to have improved since i fiddled with the injectors etc..

 

[Dr HMS Derv Destroyer]

Ah getting somewhere, could of been a airlock.

Did you clean up the injector seats and flamme washers before refitting? And torqued up the clamps properly?

You might get an injector chuff or blow out if not seated properly/held down.

Ideally now you need to replicate the conditions you experienced the fault with as before to see if it's still there,
as for the partials found from the fuel filter, usually if the pump goes it with. Chuck allot of metal out. But that not to say its starting to die. Like you said.


See how it gets on, and try not to use easy start to much if it dies, the engine will learn to only start on that lol