No knock sensor on Cup engine?

[sonny172cup]

Just swapped my engines over on the 172 cup with a 182 engine and noticed a extra plug above the oil filter, turns out its the knock sensor. The thing is I still have the knock sensor plug floating around in the engine bay (always wondered what it was for, thought it was redundant due to the ITB).

So is there any reason why my cup engine never had one or was blanked off?

 

[Michael Woodford MST]

What management are you running?

 

[mark123]

My 172 cup has one.
​

 

[sonny172cup]

What management are you running?

Gen90

 

[scotty2hotty81]

Mapped by ktec? My turbo mapped by them had it deleted out (worryingly)

 

[Tony Hunter]

Mapped by ktec? My turbo mapped by them had it deleted out (worryingly)

​LOL. (sorry)

 

[scotty2hotty81]

​LOL. (sorry)

Well I say mine, mine was done by Paul at rst, this one bought for parts of Darren stone (dms) and there was no knock sensor.

 

[Dan519]

99% of aftermarket ECUs won't use a knock sensor for feedback. it's a mass production safety measure that's not needed when you're mapping each car individually

 

[sonny172cup]

Cheers Dan makes sense

 

[Michael Woodford MST]

99% of aftermarket ECUs won't use a knock sensor for feedback. it's a mass production safety measure that's not needed when you're mapping each car individually

I'd disagree TBF!

If a manufacturer calibrated ECU that has gone through years of testing in different climates, in various different chambers where temperature and atmospheric pressure can be adjusted at the click of a button, (which I'm sure you'll agree is much more thorough than you or I could ever achieve) requires a knock sensor, I'd say that's even more reason for a standalone to have one.

Manufacturer calibrations are also much safer for an engine, such as conservative ignition values and richer fuelling in the top end which makes an engine more det resistant anyway.

If your standalone is all geared up for Knock control, which I believe Gen90 is, it would be a bit silly not to run it.

 

[Chip-mk1]

I'd disagree TBF!

If a manufacturer calibrated ECU that has gone through years of testing in different climates, in various different chambers where temperature and atmospheric pressure can be adjusted at the click of a button, (which I'm sure you'll agree is much more thorough than you or I could ever achieve) requires a knock sensor, I'd say that's even more reason for a standalone to have one.

Manufacturer calibrations are also much safer for an engine, such as conservative ignition values and richer fuelling in the top end which makes an engine more det resistant anyway.

If your standalone is all geared up for Knock control, which I believe Gen90 is, it would be a bit silly not to run it.

Agreed.
I bet there isnt a single car on this forum on aftermarket that has got anywhere near perfect values in the temp correction table as the cost of doing so mapping wise would be huge and thats if the ECU you are running is even capable of accepting enough information in the first place, which unless you are on something like Autronic with a host of GPC tables etc you wont be any where close even, on something like an Omex 600 for example, its physically impossible to achieve anything like manufacturer levels of temp and pressure correction control.
And even if you have the right hardware then unless you can tune your own car and do so over a period of a couple of years to get all weather conditions (which on a highly tuned car unless you hardly use the car isnt going to be an option as the engine will wear and hence its requirements change) then with the best will in the world the best you can have on a hot day if you map your car on a cold day is an educated guess, and vice versa.
Its only possible to truely accurately map a car for the scenario its in at the point its mapped, the rest is no more than educated (or in some cases uneducated of course) guesswork, and that is why manufacturers can spend into the millions of pounds purely on developing a map, even the worlds best mapper cant have a car on a set of rollers for one day and then map it perfectly for when the temp is 20 degrees higher or lower than on the day in question, anyone who thinks otherwise just doesnt understand what goes into PROPERLY mapping a car for all situations, it just isnt something you can do in a day or two on the rollers to anything like manufacturer standards.

Going back to knock control specifically, if you are going to be running very high rpm then unless the ECU has quite sophisticated knock control strategies (not sure what the Gen90 ones are like) then you run the risk of valve train noise being misinterpreted as knock which can be one reason for not running one on a highly modified engine if running an ECU with only basic knock control rather than a 3d table etc.
Unlikely to be an issue on an F4R though of course as even 8K is a struggle, lol.

 

[sonny172cup]

Interesting, well initilally as I now have a 182 engine instead of the 172, and saw that extra sensor I started to worry... I did speak to Matt at CR who said it was the knock sensor.

So, ok my old sensor had been removed, the new engine has one and I still have the old loom connection, so from recommendation on here, would you advise that I run/map the Gen90 to incorporate the knock sensor?

 

[Chip-mk1]

Thats something you really need to discuss with whoever is going to be mapping the car mate.

 

[sonny172cup]

Ok buddy will do. Thanks for the detailed reply.

 

[mi16chris]

As far as I know the knock control on my gen90 is not tuned on or calibrated with the base map I got from ktec and the tuner pro software looks to have alot of tables locked out

 

[Greeny.]

just doesnt understand what goes into PROPERLY mapping a car for all situations

Says the guy that blew up his engine with his own map?

 

[fake ben taylor]

Says the guy that blew up his engine with his own map?

Somebody fetch chip some aloe Vera for that burn!

 

[Chip-mk1]

Says the guy that blew up his engine with his own map?

If you mean my turbo, then it was indeed nowhere near properly mapped yet for hot weather when I took it out at bedford, as I'd been too busy moving house to touch it since we have had the hot weather and so I took it along fully understanding there was a risk which is why at the event I said I suspected that it might have been killed by det caused by inadequate temp corrections.
But that since seems to have then been passed around as a definitive answer as to why it died, but as per my update to my project thread that actually wasnt the case and having now pulled it apart its simply ran lean on one cylinder, which is an injector fault not a map issue.

The map still needs work for hot weather though, as like I said it was only mapped for the temps in january, which is an example of the sort of thing that I have mentioned in this thread - dont mistake me not having a chance to do so with not knowing how to do so, very different things, my only "mistake" was choosing to use the car not yet finished, but thats just a case of you win some and lose some and I still had a good evening so its no real drama so I dont especially regret it TBH, would probably do the same again if it was an event I specifically wanted to attend.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Somebody fetch chip some aloe Vera for that burn!

Lol, no mate, someone getting the wrong end of the stick doesnt bother me, and even if it had been the map it wouldnt have bothered me him saying so either as like I just mentioned that "rumour" was started by me anyway at the actual event when asked what was up with it as I knew the map hadnt been addressed in hot weather but I didnt know at that stage it was just a lean condition on that cylinder from a duff injector so was quite happy to put my hands up to the fact I'd used a car I hadnt mapped for the conditions yet (although it did have some reasonably safe guesses like Ive mentioned in this thread, as shown by no signs of det and no signs of damage to the other cylinders).

Going back together soon hopefully anyway, so no harm done