Oggers - Clio 172 - Race Car Project

[Oggers]

Hi,

I thought I'd share a project I've just started, it's similar in a lot of ways to some projects that other people have underway or have completed so hopefully you'll keep me on the straight and narrow going forward!!

I bought the car new in 2001 and for the last 5 years the Misses has been using it, however a few months ago she decided she wanted to change her car. I couldn't bring myself to sell it or trade it in and so have decided to build a MSA Blue Book compliant car. The plan is to hopefully do some sprints / hill climbs towards the end of this year to get some experience with it in it's new form with the intention of taking part in a race series next year, probably the CSCC Tin Tops. That might be hugely optomistic as I plan to do as much as I can myself.

At this point I should just say that the amount of information available on this site is fantastic and also that the Burpspeed site has really enabled me to understand what I'm taking on. So thanks to everyone that takes the time to post updates on their projects or provide information / advice to people like myself.

So far the car has been completely stripped and is currently with a local company having the rollcage welded in (not done any welding in a long time so thought it best to get it done properly!). They normally specialise in race prepping BMW's so the Clio has some interesting "garage mates" at the moment!

I went for the Oreca cage from K-Tec, the same version fitted by Big Lum, according to the guys who are fitting it they are really impressed with the fit of the cage. Apparently it fits a lot better than some of the ones they have fitted from the more recognised manufacturers. Don't have any pictures of the cage I'm afraid, but as soon as I do I'll add them to the ones posted below.

Other than stripping the car I've spent my time gathering together bits and pieces for the build once the car is back.

One thing I've gone for which I haven't seen so far on any of the threads I've looked at is to change the pedalbox, which as far as I can see is OK from a Blue Book perspective. This was after reading about the issues with achieving a good front / rear brake balance with the original setup for track / race use. Could be a pain in the *ss to do, but I like a challenge :S and if it doesn't work out I can reinstate the original setup pretty easily.

Anyway a few pictures of what the car looked like when it left and some of the stuff that's waiting to be fitted when it gets back ..........










Appreciate any feedback / advice.

Cheers

 

[Cro]

Nice, interesting choice on the pedal box, I'd love to change mine so if yours works out i'll be copying. Nice choice of mods so far Good luck

 

[Nafoff]

another interesting thread, good luck mate...
there are plenty on here as you say building similar cars so lots of advice to be shared around

 

[Oggers]

Having seen some of the recent updates from Nick172Cup, Chrispy and Tom I thought I'd add an update of my own, although I'm not sure I'm really in the same league as those guys!

The cage is nearing completion just need to get the harness bars and dash bar welded in, then James at Redish Motorsport is going to weld in some harness mounting points and some blanks over the holes in the bulkhead left by removing the heater components and original pedal box. Couple of pictures of the cage being fitted...........




Aswell as the cage spent some time preparing the rear axle, as much of the bracketry wasn't required got rid of it including the now obsolete spring pans. This meant that could have strengthening kit fitted along with the rear bearing conversion. All expertly welded in by Nick at Pure Motorsport, as you can tell anything to do with welding is where I get it done by someone who knows what they're doing!!




I know the changes to the rear axle aren't seen as necessary by lots of people, but it meant I got a day in Padstow in the sun whilst Nick was doing the work!!

As always appreciate your thoughts / feedback!

 

[laville98]

looks like a really interesting project.

I'm needing to strengthen my rear axle as for some reason it feels really weak around corners and I'm not very confident with it.

I know it's the axle as the back right wheel doesn't sit on a flat surface 100%.

Any thoughts on where to look for strengthening kits or what I can do?

 

[daveski]

There is going to be a lot of CS competition in the tin tops series next year. Good luck with your project.

 

[Nick172Cup]

Only just stumbled across this thread!

Cars looking good so far, good to see another car that shall be racing in the Tintops in the not too distant future! I've a got a way to go before mine's ready but cannot wait, should be a lot of good competition out with all these CS racecars popping up!

 

[Oggers]

The strengthening work done to the rear axle is effectively an "off the peg" kit which has been developed by Pure Motorsport in Padstow. You can buy the bits and fit them yourself or do as I did get them to do it for you.

I went to Donnington a few weeks ago to watch the racing and have a chat with a few people which has given me all sorts of things to think about with regards to getting the car ready. When you see Mike Jordan supporting (and guest driving, I think) one of the cars gives you a feel for the competition!

Current progress on my car has been a bit delayed, deciding how to mount the new pedalbox has taken a bit more work than I thought, nothing unusual there then!

 

[BRT Motorsport]

very nice, will keep a good eye on this thread i to have been thinking about fitting one of those pedal boxs

 

[Ricardo destroka]

Impressive project! How is it by now?

 

[chrispy.clio]

Ooooooooo, I have only just seen this thread. I love the pedal box

You have deffently gone for the best air filter on those ITB's (snap)

Where did you the manifold from? Looks like its billet Alluminum with a taper. Not sure i have seen one of those before!

Keep up the good work, i look forward to seeing more updates

 

[Oggers]

I have to admit I got the throttle bodies, 120mm trumpets, air filter, Megane 250 injectors and the TPS as a complete "kit" on e-bay. The seller had got it all together for his own project but trashed the car before it got fitted.

The manifold is indeed machined from billet aluminium and slightly sweeps the bodies down, apparently to assist with getting the filter to fit with the slam panel in place, not that that is an issue for me.

As to where the manifold came from, I'm told it's "one off" from AngelWorks, although I have no evidence of that.

I'll update with some more photos, etc once the pedal box is in place.

 

[chrispy.clio]

I would have thought the slope on the mani is so the filter doesnt touch the bonnet when its closed. Slam pannel would never fit with those bodies and 120mm trumpets.

So are you going to be putting the ITB's on a standard engine? Have you got any other engine plans?

 

[BRT Motorsport]

have you looked at a clutch cable yet for the pedal box

 

[Oggers]

You're probably right about the TB manifold, haven't actually seen it in situ yet!!

Other plans for the engine are a bit fluid at the moment, although I've been talking to a few people about what's possible on the budget I have. I've already got hold of a genuine 182 manifold, and the alternator setup from a Cup to get rid of the a/c. The only definate change will be the ECU, I've stripped the entire loom out of the car and the plan is to rewire from scratch as I'm not using any of the original controls, guages, etc.

The overriding principle for the engine has to be reliability as I won't have the budget for mid season engine rebuilds. So if anyone has any suggestions on engine mods that would do the job I'd be glad of the advice / suggestions.

 

[Oggers]

have you looked at a clutch cable yet for the pedal box

The clutch cable is on the TBC list at the moment, along with about 300 other things!

 

[chrispy.clio]

I removed 100% of the standard wiring looms from my car and rewired it from scratch. If you want reliability then ditching the renanut looms is the way to go.

 

[Oggers]

One of the reasons for the rewire was seeing the problems experienced by others when trying to make significant changes to the standard loom.

 

[BRT Motorsport]

The clutch cable is on the TBC list at the moment, along with about 300 other things!

thanks, will keep an eye for the update, i would say for engine a set of cams and the throttle bodies would be enough

 

[Gray]

yep that's the one off billet manifold Ben at Angelworks made... It was originally for Steve at Birchdown.

 

[gerupsausage]

LOOKS GOOD

 

[Ricardo destroka]

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Hi!

I've a 172 and im considering to exchange it for a genuine 182 manifold with a new exhaust sistem. what do you think about this mod. what i will get form the 182 manifolds? i just have a BMC CDA mod in the engine and i don't plan to do anything else.
Do you think that it will worth the investment?

By the way which exhaust you will fit in the manifolds?

Greetings[/FONT]

 

[pedro.belintani]

it is gonna be good !!

=P

 

[GodSpeed]

Looking good!

Thinking about bining my Whitline ATB and go for that reinforcement instead. Just after my pure axle bushings were welded in place, axle blasted and painted pure released this kit

Looking to purchase some Sportline II's myself. Would be great if you could specify the spring setup.

 

[Oggers]

Version:1.0 StartHTML:0000000149 EndHTML:0000000670 StartFragment:0000000199 EndFragment:0000000636 StartSelection:0000000199 EndSelection:0000000636 [FONT=Tahoma, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial]
Hi!

Do you think that it will worth the investment?

By the way which exhaust you will fit in the manifolds?

Greetings[/FONT]

Whether it's worth the investment is a personal choice, but from what I understand the 182 manifold is a better item than the stock 172 item and so in my view yes, it's trying to get hold of one. Mine wasn't new so I didn't pay full Renault price for it.

The rest of the exhaust system is likely to consist of the Sports Cat for 182 manifold upgrade that K-Tec do to link a 182 manifold to a 172 exhaust, again possibly a Supersport system from K-Tec

Thanks

 

[Oggers]

Looking good!

Looking to purchase some Sportline II's myself. Would be great if you could specify the spring setup.

I took the advice of Curtis at AST on the springs, the codes on them are:

Front: AST-180-100-61
Rear: Eibach 0500.200.0500

I do know that the version I have differ to another set I saw, and this is where I show my technical incompetence, on mine the lower springs (grey) have a flat profile to the coil on the other slightly older set the lower spring had the same profile as the upper spring. Don't know if it's just a change they made or maybe I don't have what I think I have if you see what I mean!

Thanks

 

[GodSpeed]

I took the advice of Curtis at AST on the springs, the codes on them are:

Front: AST-180-100-61
Rear: Eibach 0500.200.0500

I do know that the version I have differ to another set I saw, and this is where I show my technical incompetence, on mine the lower springs (grey) have a flat profile to the coil on the other slightly older set the lower spring had the same profile as the upper spring. Don't know if it's just a change they made or maybe I don't have what I think I have if you see what I mean!

Thanks

If I interpret this right? you have 100N/mm springs in front, 180mm long and inner diameter 61mm? Rears seem to be only 87N/mm, 127mm long and 50,8mm ID.

I find that very strange since I was recommended 100N/mm front and 120-140N/mm rear. So way way harder in the rear than in the front, and you have it the other way around?! Maybe I got It all wrong?

Btw. were top mounts included in the kit?

 

[Jonny1*2]

You're probably right about the TB manifold, haven't actually seen it in situ yet!!

Other plans for the engine are a bit fluid at the moment, although I've been talking to a few people about what's possible on the budget I have. I've already got hold of a genuine 182 manifold, and the alternator setup from a Cup to get rid of the a/c. The only definate change will be the ECU, I've stripped the entire loom out of the car and the plan is to rewire from scratch as I'm not using any of the original controls, guages, etc.

The overriding principle for the engine has to be reliability as I won't have the budget for mid season engine rebuilds. So if anyone has any suggestions on engine mods that would do the job I'd be glad of the advice / suggestions.

Forge it Nothing like a bullet proof bottom end

 

[Space Cadet]

Check your spring rates before you order, I recently bought the Sportline 2 kit for my stripped-out track-day Clio 172 (still road registered so not full-on race-car) and it was supplied with 80NM rears and 90NM fronts??!!


The front was understearing everywhere. We’ve since swapped the fronts to 60NM (AST supplied – no charge) and the car now handles absolutely perfectly.

Was at Brands last Friday and in the torrential rain with both the front and rear shocks set to soft it handled fantastically and then when the track dried I progressively wound the rears to about 50% and again it handled fantastically.

I’m not sure how a Clio, even a race Clio, could ever handle well with such high front spring rates, obviously someone correct me if I’m wrong.

We also decreased the front camber from 3.5 to around 2.5 (rear 2.3) and along with the softer front springs its now perfect.

 

[GodSpeed]

Check your spring rates before you order, I recently bought the Sportline 2 kit for my stripped-out track-day Clio 172 (still road registered so not full-on race-car) and it was supplied with 80NM rears and 90NM fronts??!!


The front was understearing everywhere. We’ve since swapped the fronts to 60NM (AST supplied – no charge) and the car now handles absolutely perfectly.

Was at Brands last Friday and in the torrential rain with both the front and rear shocks set to soft it handled fantastically and then when the track dried I progressively wound the rears to about 50% and again it handled fantastically.

I’m not sure how a Clio, even a race Clio, could ever handle well with such high front spring rates, obviously someone correct me if I’m wrong.

We also decreased the front camber from 3.5 to around 2.5 (rear 2.3) and along with the softer front springs its now perfect.

I honestly can understand how you can run so soft, I run 100N/mm front and rear on my Bilsteins and it is way to soft. Recomendations I got from AST UK was:

Nürburgring setup: 70N/mm front, 110N/mm rear (softer than a normal setup)

Typical race setup: 100N/mm front, 140N/mm rear OR 120N/mm front, 160N/mm rear (depending on tyre choice)

And on top of this Burpspeed guys run, 100N/mm front and 80N/mm rear. I dont know what to think TBH.

Sorry about going OT in your thread Oggers.

 

[Space Cadet]

TDF advised the front springs were too hard and when we checked noticed that the fronts were actually harder than the rears, they recommended I went for 60NM front and kept the rears at 80NM.

TDF set up race cars so when they advised to soften the fronts I went with what they suggested and now the car handles literally 100% better than it did and is now perfect for me.

Sure I don’t race it, but it embarrasses R8’s, Exiges, M3’s etc on track so it must be set up well.

Unless a race Clio is perhaps going even faster into corners and therefore rolling more onto the outside of the tyre a harder spring would just make the car understeer surely?

And a race Clio would probably be even lighter than mine therefore surely would have less weight to push down on the springs and therefore would need softer springs?

I think there are very similar sounding measurements for springs and AST’s are N/mm (I think); from memory to convert to lb/ft you multiplied by 5.7.

So 60 front = 342 and 80 rear = 456 which is plenty stiff enough.

 

[GodSpeed]

Would love to see Curtis at AST + folkes at TDF to comment on this.

Bet our cars are about the same weight so how can you experience your car as plenty stiff with 60/80 and I think mine is to soft with 100/100?? It cant be all down to compression and valving could it? I meen its huge differances we are talking about here. I just dont understand it.

 

[Space Cadet]

Curtis supplies so many bespoke kits that there is’nt a set spring weight, each kit is specific and mine originally was what Tom at JMS ordered.

Regardless of whether the measurements are in NM, or lbft etc my original post to Oggers was to check the spring weights before ordering, he might want 60/80, 100/100 or 100/140 etc etc but just to be clear on ordering what he specifically wanted rather than what Curtis assumes he wanted or what weight or usage Curtis believed the car was. No disrespect to Curtis by the way and as previously mentioned he kindly supplied the softer springs free of charge.

Regardless of what rate my springs were to start with the car was under-steering therefore we needed to give it more front-end grip and to do that the spring-rates and camber are the first things to look at. I’m running 888’s which have a stiff side-wall so it made sense to decrease the camber and because the car was literally skipping across the track we softened the springs which helps give a constant grip across a bumpy track when cornering.

I’m loads faster around the track now and the tyre wear on the fronts is far less so the set-up is definitely a massive improvement and in this instance and on my car the softer springs have worked a treat.

It was Simon, the suspension guru, at TDF that recommended the softer springs and camber decrease; he was surprised that for such a lightweight car how stiff the fronts were. Matt agreed with him so I went for it.

 

[Oggers]

From my perspective all my previous cars have been fast road car projects with the compromises that entails. For the Clio, having read various comments and spoken with Curtis I went for the items I have detailed.

The car hasn't turned a wheel on this suspension and so I can't offer a view and it may be that I need to re-evaluate the spring rates, etc at a later date. One thing I am sure of is that different people will prefer their car set up differently that may account for the comments so far.

On a different subject Johnny1*2 mentioned a forged bottom end, any recommendations on people to speak to about this?

 

[Nick172Cup]

Having spoken to many people regarding suspension etc, in my mind its playing about with it yourself with how your driving style is. Let people advise you with things you could do but letting someone solely setup a car for you seems mad in my eyes, when my racecar gets a new setup i'll probably be going with AST's, but before that i'll be driving a few AST setup cars with different spring rates to see what I like/dont like and then set it up for myself/the person i'm racing with.

Oggers - If your definately set for racing unless you have a huge budget I wouldn't bother with forging an engine. The amount of money spent to build one (got to be in excess of £1500) will get you a couple of engines that if/when they blow up you can just take the bolt of bits like ITB's etc of and put onto the new engine. Sod spending £1500 on a forged engine, it then blowing up and not having the budget then to get just another engine. All in my opinion of course...

Nick

 

[Oggers]

Nick,

Completely agree that ideally I would have tried various suspension set ups being before purchasing, for me this is very much a starting point.

Thanks for the thoughts on the forged bottom end and I can see the logic in what you're saying.

 

[Jonny1*2]

Having spoken to many people regarding suspension etc, in my mind its playing about with it yourself with how your driving style is. Let people advise you with things you could do but letting someone solely setup a car for you seems mad in my eyes, when my racecar gets a new setup i'll probably be going with AST's, but before that i'll be driving a few AST setup cars with different spring rates to see what I like/dont like and then set it up for myself/the person i'm racing with.

Oggers - If your definately set for racing unless you have a huge budget I wouldn't bother with forging an engine. The amount of money spent to build one (got to be in excess of £1500) will get you a couple of engines that if/when they blow up you can just take the bolt of bits like ITB's etc of and put onto the new engine. Sod spending £1500 on a forged engine, it then blowing up and not having the budget then to get just another engine. All in my opinion of course...

Nick

Slightly more than that Nick. they shouldn't ever blow though
You have two options really size wise, 82.7mm (standard) or 83mm pistons. Compression either high or like for like. Cams and high comp should see similar gains to TBs in respect the bhp. Not many go down this route as the standard 1*2 pistons are good, and it's usually head issues that screw them up.

 

[Ricardo destroka]

Whether it's worth the investment is a personal choice, but from what I understand the 182 manifold is a better item than the stock 172 item and so in my view yes, it's trying to get hold of one. Mine wasn't new so I didn't pay full Renault price for it.

The rest of the exhaust system is likely to consist of the Sports Cat for 182 manifold upgrade that K-Tec do to link a 182 manifold to a 172 exhaust, again possibly a Supersport system from K-Tec

Thanks

Thanks for your opinion Oggers!

 

[GodSpeed]

How's things going?

 

[Oggers]

Progress has been a little slow over recent weeks mainly due to work (I work on a contracting basis and go where the work is, currently in Edinburgh which is an issue with the car being in Bristol).

Currently trying to finish off the mounting of the new pedal box which has been ongoing for too long!

One change to the plan is that the car will initially be used for track day outings only rather than competing. It will still be prepared to the Blue Book requirements so that hopefully in the future I could go racing.

As a result I took the decision to buy Bomber's supercharger kit, the only difference is that I'm thinking of running the supercharger and the throttle bodies I've already got using a Jenvey plenum. I need to consult a few people about the merits of doing that, if I don't go that route I'll at least be able to sell the bodies to recover some of the cost of the supercharger.

Afraid that's it at the moment!