'Play' In Top Mounts?

[PeteCup]

Had a knocking from my front suspension since owning my Cup, the 'washer' fix made no difference. Fitted some Eibach springs today so had the dampers apart and noticed that when assembled and all done up tight i have 'play' in the top part, when you shake the rubber part it feels loose still. Could this be where my knocking is coming from?

Borrowed pic from Fubars site (cheers in advance)

 

[GazM]

I think mine had a little bit of play when i did mine last weekend - i'm sure its normal though as i have no knocking, especially as i've also added the washers now

 

[edde]

You'll get some play depends how much you have one option is new top mount rubber nbumges the whole kit is 65 from renault or so a side or the bung itself is 10 form gsf

 

[Butler205]

I have the same problem even on a new top mount kit. And thought I'd search the forum for anyone else with a similar issue.

IMO there is a sleeve thats too long and spaces the whole lot out. I think it should fit tight, but not too tight it knackers the bearing. I am going to dismantle mine again I see if I can modify the setup to remove the play because it just knocks all the time. Its poorly/cheaply designed.

 

[-J-]

Are these rubber bits in the photo the parts thats repalced with solid mounts?

If so would that not resolve the knocking issues?

 

[Butler205]

I think the solid mounts are the proper fix for this, yes.

However I think that if you can machine the sleeve down it would stop the knocking, but I can't say for sure until I get it all in bits again.

 

[PeteCup]

Oooh good info, let me know if machining the sleeve works because if so i'll whip mine out and turn them down

 

[PeteCup]

I'm wondering if machining the the sleeve will make the whole assembly too tight and not allow the 'bearing' to move and maybe make the springs skip or something?

 

[Butler205]

To me that play serves no purpose, its just bad tolerences. I am sure some or most of it can be removed before it starts to bind on the bearings or other parts, but I need it a apart and have a look, but that may not be for a few weeks.

Pete, if you do take it apart again, take loads of pics.

 

[PeteCup]

To me that play serves no purpose, its just bad tolerences. I am sure some or most of it can be removed before it starts to bind on the bearings or other parts, but I need it a apart and have a look, but that may not be for a few weeks.

Pete, if you do take it apart again, take loads of pics.

Will do mate, i may well do it next weekend

 

[PeteCup]

If i take the top mounts out again does that mean i'll need my tracking done again? As i've just had tyres and tracking done.

 

[Butler205]

No. The geometry is fixed on a standard top mounts.

 

[andrebailliesearle]

Did mine last week and found same thing, all i did was cut the sleeve with a hacksaw and then rebuilt, the amount of metal the hacksaw removed tightened the bearing up nicely but still left enough pressure to rotate freely and now doesnt knock at all.

 

[Butler205]

Thats exactly what a wanted to hear. Nice one. I was hoping to achieve the same result once I get around to it.

 

[PeteCup]

Did mine last week and found same thing, all i did was cut the sleeve with a hacksaw and then rebuilt, the amount of metal the hacksaw removed tightened the bearing up nicely but still left enough pressure to rotate freely and now doesnt knock at all.

So you took off about the thickness of the hacksaw blade off the sleeve, around 1.5/2.0mm? This seems like a good fix then for knocking issues.

 

[andrebailliesearle]

Well if im being honest i had a guess how much to remove and removed too much and the bearing wouldnt rotate, so i added the bit i chopped off and it was perfect.

 

[PeteCup]

Well if im being honest i had a guess how much to remove and removed too much and the bearing wouldnt rotate, so i added the bit i chopped off and it was perfect.

lol, so in total the sleeve is shorter by about the thickness of a blade. I'll measure up a blade then machine my sleeves down then in that case Good work If that all works out and solves the knocking then i may be able to knock up a batch of new shorter sleeves for other people who have knocking issues.

 

[andrebailliesearle]

lol it was either put back together with what the part of sleeve i chopped off or special order the sleeve so did same to other side lol, gotta admit just replace top mounts on my golf gttdi and mounting is very similar but the bearing is nice and snug in the rubber and bearing is nice and smooth with no play at all, but is german afterall they got it right 1st time round lol.

 

[PeteCup]

I know what you mean, replaced the top mounts when i fitted my coilovers on my Ibiza Cupra and they were lovely, thats why i was concerned when i felt the Clio ones. I take it this is the sleeve that needs reducing....

 

[andrebailliesearle]

Yep thats the 1, it typical french to have to use a ill fitting sleeve to fit a ill fitting bearing lol

 

[PeteCup]

lol aint it just. If i get time i'll whip the struts off Sunday night and machine the sleeves Monday morning then hopefully my knocking will be a thing of the past.

 

[PeteCup]

Got bored this morning so pulled the struts out, i'll take the top mounts to work this afternoon and machine the sleeves then report back tomorrow morning.

You can actually see the gap here....

(yes i know the above tyres are shot, i'm off to ProTyre in a min for some new ones)

 

[CHRISK172+]

Read a few threads on these top mounts, have to agree that there a pretty poor design. I put 2 new kits on mine when I changed from coilovers to Koni yellow top kit. The bearings are a cheap and nasty item too. They have messed about so much with this design, i'm pretty sure it's for cheapness and allowed them to cheaply adjust or modify set up for cups/172/182/trophy/1.6/1.4/1.2 and so it's a jack of all and master of none. Didn't like the idea of the strut top fixing washer so i ground out the top of the strut, as Renault originally did. Seems like they have heard of the easier washer fix as Fred says they now do that.

 

[PeteCup]

I tried the washer fix on mine but that didnt solve any knocking at all, all it did was cause more play when un sprung. I think grinding my shell is the last resort for me, i'd sooner modify the exisiting top mounts and if that fails fit some solid top mounts.

 

[Butler205]

This is totally different to Freds washers and Renaults shell grinding. Freds washer don't help here at all. I have tried them.

This is the first time I have seen anyone do this.

There are two causes for the knock. 1. The part above the inner wing hits the wing due to the flex in the rubber. This is resolved with the washers or grinding the wing.

2. Play in the mount assembly itself.

To me to sort them once and for all you need cut down this sleeve. If they still knock then fit the washers, but they are seperate issues.

 

[CHRISK172+]

Just thinking out loud here, if you grind/machine the bush down, when you re-fit the 17mm nut it will screw down further....by the ammount you have machined off.....achieving nothing. I might be wrong....my first thought would be the bearing as mine had play when I had the assembly off the car, but now fitted, theres no knocking.

EDIT....Looking at pic above, i'm assuming that your saying the rubber inner is loose. So possibly grinding the bush may extend the life of the inner.....i see.

 

[andrebailliesearle]

The main thing shortening the sleeve does is reduce the up and down movement of the rubber itself thus when you tighten the 17mm nut it tightens close to the rubber but still allows movement and rotation but iff you did like my 1st attempt take too much off the sleeve it tightens up nicely but it too tight for the strut to rotate and you damage the rubber as that the part that rotates instead of the bearing

 

[PeteCup]

Done mine tonight at work, shortened the sleeve and added a shim over the sleeve to remove more play. Assembled the struts and theres zero play but the bearing moves nicely. Will find out tomorrow wether this solves my knocking when i refit the struts to the car. If it works i'll post pics and dimensions of what i've done.

 

[PeteCup]

A quick trip around the block and no knocking at all It seems that 'my' knocking was caused by play in the top mount assembly itself and not by the mounts rubbing/knocking on the car (ie Freds washer fix) Happy days! Will add some pics of what ive done later on for anyone whos interested.

 

[Butler205]

Yep.

If we can come up with exact measurements then it would make sense for something to make new sleeves to complement the "washers". Fred?

 

[PeteCup]

Yep.

If we can come up with exact measurements then it would make sense for something to make new sleeves to complement the "washers". Fred?

The only issue with that is i made mine to fit my actual mounts and going by Renaults lack of a tolerance system i dont know if everyone will benefit from my exact measurements. I left my sketch at work but i'll get it later and post dimensions anyway.

 

[andrebailliesearle]

pmsl how what started as a measurement c**k up and experiment has become a fix, a mechanic in my place has done same mod on his 172 today and sorted his knocking out.

 

[andrebailliesearle]

Just a quick afterthought!!!!! if you have access to a lathe, to me it would make sense to machine a sleeve that actually fits the rubber properly as mine got play when you place sleeve in the bush off the car. Any thoughts???

 

[Butler205]

I am amazed nobody has come up with this fix before.

 

[PeteCup]

lol, yeah it would have been easier to machine a whole new sleeve to fit the rubber rather than a shim for the sleeve as it were, but i was just messing with ideas when i made the shims and it worked so i left it, for now anyway

 

[matty J]

shims are they availible as mines knocking like a b**ch

 

[PeteCup]

Excuse the pics (my phone has decided it dosnt auto focus anymore), but heres what i did...

New shim (looks rusty but its not, its stainless)...

Random scribblings...

Shim fitted to rubber...

Existing sleeve (shortened)...

 

[andrebailliesearle]

So when you taking out a patent??? lol

 

[PeteCup]

Will get a drawing made up for 'one-piece' modified sleeves, then i'll see if i can knock some up. Only get a chance every 2 weeks as i work alternate shifts and do all my car stuff on late shift.

 

[matty J]

let me know dude defo interested but still need to try the washers ive got
what the best way of removing the strut top?