Power Steering Pump Solution - Without Deleting it.

[BIFCAIDS]

Hi guys,

So, I've recently gone through two power steering pumps at Cadwell Park on two separate occasions within 12 months.

First pump was on only 74k and the 2nd on 144k.

I was at Cadwell on Thursday and got about 2 hours into the day and the pump started to stall. The car had plenty of fluid and the rack has recently been rebuilt with a brand new HP line. So I headed to the local Parker's in Louth for a shorter belt so I could continue the day with no power steering.

However, people will say "just delete it" or "EPAS", which would be great but I'm guessing your Mum doesn't drive your car on track days. This is my dilemma, I still need the car to have power steering so PS Delete is out of the question and I'm still not convinced by EPAS. The reason I'm not convinced by it, is the fact that it can be laggy and this is from someone I know who runs a supercharged 172.

Someone mentioned people have used a Mercedes power steering pump, does anybody have any information on this?

Thanks
Mike

 

[Robbie Corbett]

Hi Mike, honestly why not just replace the pump with a 0miles one at 74k its likely past its best at 144k is shagged.

 

[Usr117063]

@bozothenutter

 

[Brigsy]

Was it spitting fluid out of the cap?

Flush and replace the pas fluid for new, run it the minimum mark and you wont have an issue.

 

[bozothenutter]

I have the pump, still need to get my arse in gear though with regards to the lines.
Learned that the Merc pump has its own problems.
- the control box on the side is not sealed and lets moisture in
- apparently the pumps are known to keep running after the engine is turned off, draining the battery

 

[BIFCAIDS]

Hi Mike, honestly why not just replace the pump with a 0miles one at 74k its likely past its best at 144k is shagged.

Well that was my original thought but Id rather have something more up to the job. Other than add ons nothing else has failed over a few corners around a trac

Was it spitting fluid out of the cap?

Flush and replace the pas fluid for new, run it the minimum mark and you wont have an issue.

It's already new fluid, new lines, reconditioned rack the lot. Except for the pump.

 

[BIFCAIDS]

I have the pump, still need to get my arse in gear though with regards to the lines.
Learned that the Merc pump has its own problems.
- the control box on the side is not sealed and lets moisture in
- apparently the pumps are known to keep running after the engine is turned off, draining the battery

Bugger, someone else has suggested a Peugeot one also.

 

[Usr117063]

I have the pump, still need to get my arse in gear though with regards to the lines.
Learned that the Merc pump has its own problems.
- the control box on the side is not sealed and lets moisture in
- apparently the pumps are known to keep running after the engine is turned off, draining the battery

I found this info if you are not sure which line to get

"Power steering pumps require a hose with a vacuum rating of 28 INCHES/HG on the inlet side, and a minimum ½”inside diameter"

"The -6 pressure hose, leaving the pump, must have an operating pressure of 2,250 psi. and an inside diameter of .31”

 

[massiveCoRbyn]

What's the actual problem that causes the pump to fail?

 

[Krarl]

Use a Vito or a saxo electric fluid pump? Bin off the w**k belt driven one

 

[BIFCAIDS]

What's the actual problem that causes the pump to fail?

Not driving the little sports car around town it would seem. The guy who I know running an EPAS now, had the same issue prior to the swap.

 

[robmuns]

Toyota mr2 is also a popular electro hydraulic pump that alot of drifters use.. If you can hook up a speed signal to it too then it could be adjusted to how much assistance you get

 

[robmuns]

Electo-Hydraulic Power Steering (EHPS) conversion on S14 - Nissan Forum | Nissan Forums

forums.nicoclub.com

 

[massiveCoRbyn]

Not driving the little sports car around town it would seem. The guy who I know running an EPAS now, had the same issue prior to the swap.

What I'm trying to get at is that, by knowing the cause, it's easier to identify the workaround. Fitting a different pump may not be the solution.

Do they have cooling as standard? I would assume it's the fluid overheating and causing wear to the pump, so it may be enough to fit a new OEM pump and add some better cooling.

 

[JamesBryan]

What I'm trying to get at is that, by knowing the cause, it's easier to identify the workaround. Fitting a different pump may not be the solution.

Do they have cooling as standard? I would assume it's the fluid overheating and causing wear to the pump, so it may be enough to fit a new OEM pump and add some better cooling.

Cooling has been known to work i think, just a shame no one does an off the shelf kit for them.

I believe @NorthloopCup had a cooler setup on his a few years ago.

It should just be a case of fitting a small cooler to the low pressure line of the system, but i've never looked into it.

Better fluid should help too, Redline do a fluid.

 

[NorthloopCup]

Cooling has been known to work i think, just a shame no one does an off the shelf kit for them.

I believe @NorthloopCup had a cooler setup on his a few years ago.

It should just be a case of fitting a small cooler to the low pressure line of the system, but i've never looked into it.

Better fluid should help too, Redline do a fluid.

I’ve ran a cooler on a previous motor as I had dramas. Worked fine in the lp side.

 

[f0xy]

Cooler is wise IF your having continual issues - no offence to Mike but he isn't going anywhere near the limits of the car, tyres or doing anything like racing at the moment so the system will be nowhere near its temperature capacity - if he was spitting fluid out every session then fair enough but he isn't. I think this is simply a case of two old, f*cked pumps and bad timing. Increased temperature in the steering system is caused by excess loading... On the flip side if I don't run one with 255/40 AR-1 and 1200kg loaded car I lose the entire capacity of the reserviour due to breathing in one session. The extra fluid capacity a cooler brings, along with the cooling element soon put a stop to that.

 

[BIFCAIDS]

What I'm trying to get at is that, by knowing the cause, it's easier to identify the workaround. Fitting a different pump may not be the solution.

Do they have cooling as standard? I would assume it's the fluid overheating and causing wear to the pump, so it may be enough to fit a new OEM pump and add some better cooling.

Driving around a Cadwell Park seems to be the cause and the best workaround is not using a Renault pump by the looks of things.

So Ignoring the pump itself, below is a list of changes between the pumps going;

74k Pump;
Original rack, untouched.
New ATF fluid
Original HP line
Original LP line

144k Pump;
Rack rebuilt by a specialist not me
New ATF fluid
New 250bar/3625psi HP line (same as original)
Original LP line

Common denominator : CADWELL PARK

Now I fitted the 144k pump after Cadwell Park 2019 and did Oulton Park 2 months later with zero issues. 12 months later... I do Cadwell Park again and pop the 2nd pump goes.

I don't think cooling is an issue, it isn't breathing and I'm not driving like an F1 driver on a formation lap. Cooling isn't a common issue on Clio's like it is on E36's and Fiesta's.

 

[BIFCAIDS]

no offence to Mike but he isn't going anywhere near the limits of the car,

OI C**to!

 

[Martin_172]

If it's just pump failures, stick a brand new pump on it, no one had issues with pumps as far as I can remember on here until the cars were about 15yrs old! Now everyone is throwing pumps.

Touching on the EPAS, it does have its issues, I drove one that felt horrible and inconsistent, mine is sweet as a nut and tbh feels no different to the EPAs setup on a 197/200 so don't let a worn motor or dying ECU point you away from it

 

[massiveCoRbyn]

Driving around a Cadwell Park seems to be the cause and the best workaround is not using a Renault pump by the looks of things.

So Ignoring the pump itself, below is a list of changes between the pumps going;

74k Pump;
Original rack, untouched.
New ATF fluid
Original HP line
Original LP line

144k Pump;
Rack rebuilt by a specialist not me
New ATF fluid
New 250bar/3625psi HP line (same as original)
Original LP line

Common denominator : CADWELL PARK

Now I fitted the 144k pump after Cadwell Park 2019 and did Oulton Park 2 months later with zero issues. 12 months later... I do Cadwell Park again and pop the 2nd pump goes.

I don't think cooling is an issue, it isn't breathing and I'm not driving like an F1 driver on a formation lap. Cooling isn't a common issue on Clio's like it is on E36's and Fiesta's.

I think there are probably too many unknowns there to definitively blame the venue. I would put that down to coincidence. With the used pumps, you simply don't know their history in terms of fluid changes, whether they've been run low on fluid, or whether they have been used on track.

I would wager that a new OEM pump, along with a cooler, would eliminate the problem.

 

[bozothenutter]

I found this info if you are not sure which line to get

"Power steering pumps require a hose with a vacuum rating of 28 INCHES/HG on the inlet side, and a minimum ½”inside diameter"

"The -6 pressure hose, leaving the pump, must have an operating pressure of 2,250 psi. and an inside diameter of .31”

ooh Thanks, that's useful info!

 

[Brando]

We have EPAS, works great, not sure of the lag issue? Can share vids to suggest it's plenty fast enough/works well. The nice thing is you can easily dial it in so you could make it easier for your mum to drive. The rack is also solidly mounted. Swapped after a friend blew up our power steering pump at Rocky, and given he drives the car lots another stood 0 chance.